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What transmission you Suby guys using? I am looking into the conversion but I don't think a stock T1 trans will last long with a 220hp N/A Suby motor. Is anyone using a bus trans? Does KEP sell the bus to Suby adapter?
Mike |
Personaly, I'm using a 914 converted to rear engine. There are a few other tranny's being used too. G50, 915 is popular (I might end up changing to a 915, maybe) You could say mostly Porsche. But there are still a few Vw trannys. My biggest thing is I wanted a 5th(or just a tall gear) for highway crusing and, unless I'm mistaken, It would have cost A LOT more to beaf up a bug tranny.
I'm sure Kennedy could make an adapter to bus. The subaru conversion is pretty popular conversion in the water cooled Vanagons. |
someone correct me if im wrong... but i believe the bus and bug bell are the same (shape anyway) so the adaptor should be the same one for either trans
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You're correct. They have similar shapes. But the bus uses a 215mm flywheel and the bug uses a 200mm flywheel.
I think I could have been able to just order my adaptor kit with a bug flywheel and it would have worked in my 914 tranny. I wasn't 100% sure, so I just ordered it with the 215mm flywheel. |
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On my Subaru engine I decided to turn the intake around. In doing this I had to modify the stock alternator mount and find a new way to make the alternator adjustable. I managed to make the stock alternator mount work the way I wanted it to, by supporting the alternator on the right side of the engine. But I still needed an adjustable mount. I tried useing our plasma cutter, but it didn't work as good as I hoped. After glancing in my Summit catalog. I found an alternator bracket. http://store.summitracing.com/partde...0&autoview=sku I orderd that and my coil pack. I took the bracket yesterday, and after drilling 2 holes in it. It was mounted. It doesn't look too bad either. It's a little long right now. But I'll either cut it off later or use it to mount the EDIS sensor. I ran into two problems; First, I had to space the new alternator bracket away from the alternator and the alternator mount. If I didn't the new bracket would have hit the alternator. Second, I drilled the two holes over sized to allow more movement of the alternator. If you'll notice from the pictures as the alternator moves the bracket moves.
The first two pictures are the same, the alternator is as far away as it can go. and the last is as close as it can go. Tim will help me find a belt, and once I find a size I'll post it. I thought maybe I can drill the two holes a little bigger and get a little more movement, but I'll wait to see if I can get a belt first. I'll make sure I get two. That way if it breaks or wears out, I can replace it easy. :laugh: I know the questions I'll get, "What kind of car is it on?" |
Is it safe to draw the conclusion, no one found that helpfull? :laugh:
Anyone know where I can find a wireing diagram for my Subaru engine. I need it to go by the colour and the shape of the connectors. It's a JDM EJ20T. No clue what kind of car it's from. I'm getting ready to start hooking up the engine, I have my Megasquirt, the harness for the megasquirt, and I'm gathering my parts for the EDIS. |
Keep up the updates, I'm very interested in the MS install!
Rich |
NZ Subaru powered bug
Hey check out my mates bug he's in NZ and has a Subaru powered bug his log in is VW1302RSi he e-mail me today with the pictures. Phil
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George |
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Ricola, the MS doesn't seem difficult to wire up, I just need to know where to put the wires in the Subaru plugs? I'm clueless. I thought I knew where a diagram was, but I can't find it now. :rolleyes: |
Hello everyone.
I'm new to this forum and am currently restoring a 1964 Beetle. Having abandoned my plans to mid mount a V8, I am now looking to the Subaru conversion as an alternate route to power. I have many questions, but my first is about cooling. I wish to avoid a front mounted radiator at all costs, mainly due to cutting holes in the front end. Can't explain why, I just hate the look, but that's not meant to cause any offence to anyone elses conversion, far from it -you all have my admiration and respect. My thoughts are to mount a radiator vertically where the rear bulkhead currently sits and either duct air from underneath the car, or from ducts in the rear quarter panels if neccessary. I would triangulate the rear luggage compartment to seal in the radiator, with the hot air escaping via the engine bay. Another option would be twin smaller radiators mounted in the rear quarter panels like many mid engined supercars? Has anyone tried either of these methods yet? Would love to hear your thoughts. I'm sure it could be made to work? |
Hi there,
Check out my website (in sig). I went that route but decided to go with a front mount. I had it to the point where the car was running, but I did not have the ducting around the rad. The main reasons for me to move the rad was the complexity of building the shroud / ducting (I suck at metalwork), and I was really uncomfortable with that big hot radiator directly behind me. Nevertheless, I still think it can be done from a fabrication standpoint. One important thing to remember is that the air also needs to go out. If the air behing the rad can not get out, all the intake ducts in the world will not be able to cool the motor. Keep us posted. Rob. Rob. |
deoends which subaru engie you want to use, for a NA you could probably get away with it, with a turbo you would also have to relocate the intercooler to make space and I still haven't seen anybody get a rear mounted rad to cool properly.. You don't have to put big holes up front, look at late model corvettes fro sucking air up efficiently with minimal intake size..
Rich |
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I suppose it could be a few inches wider than the valance each side? Loads of kit cars and hi po cars use rear rads - Boxters, MR2's, Fiero's, Lambo's etc, etc so it can be done.....? For some reason, every time I see a Mk1 Toyota MR2, I see the potential for the finned air scoop they use, to be fitted into the rear quarter panel of a Beetle - one on each side, then using similar sized ally ducting, take this air back to my triangulated 'rad box' under the rear window? Or, fit two smaller rads directly behind the scoops in the quarter panels and exhaust the air back out through the rear inner wing or bulkhead like a Lambo? Just ideas for people to discuss? And yes, I was hoping to use a turbo motor. Might need to 'imagineer' a space sharing system for them both without thermal transfer screwing up the intercooler's efficiency? I see that on your Cab, you used a G50 box. I like this idea. How much shorter or longer is a G50 compared to a Type 1 tranny, and how do the ratios (speeds at say 6k rpm?) in each gear stack up? Also, how much further forward did you move the tranny for cam cover clearance? Does the adaptor plate system you used have a sealed bearing? RJES has put fear into me about exposed bearings and weak mounting bolts due to thin adaptor plates, versus his bus tranny bellhousing.....? Sorry for all the questions - I should have spread them out over a few more posts. |
Welcome to the forum. Always glad to have another Subaru converstion.
Rear mounted radiator? Just ask Panelfantastic his opinion of a rear mounted radiator. Rob tried it too. I'm doing a front mounted radiator myself. I tried to hide it to where it's not as noticeable. The saying "Form Follows Function" applies here. Would you rather have a cool engine or the radiator in the back? You can put a radiator up front and make it tasteful. What kind of use do you want with the car? Daily driver, weekend warrior...? It would be rough to daily drive it with a radiator behind you, cuts down on space a bunch. If you mount it up front you can still have a rear seat. You also brought up cars with rear mounted radiators. The fiero, from what I've heard, would have been better with a front mounted radiator. Still, the other cars with rear mounted radiators were designed and built for a rear mounted radiator. Our cars were not designed for a rear mounted radiator. It's not by any means impossible. Don't get me wrong, but it would be better to go with a proven set up, over something that has been tried before and didn't fly. In my opinion you'll have to ditch the stock intercooler. You'd be better off with a air-air intercooler. Unless you want to cut up your package tray. :laugh: Adapter plate system? Mine is just a plate with a specially made flywheel. There are not any bearings. And I wouldn't worry about KEP products. Don't worry about all the questions. That's why this thread is here. You might want to read through it if you havn't already. A lot of post, but a lot of good info too. |
There has been many posts here and on other forums about the use of rear radiators. I think panelfantastic is the only one I know of that actually made it work and I am not sure his is working as well as he wants it to. It seems to me that the duct work to the radiator would not be too difficult but exhausting all that hot air is more difficult. Extra louvers in the decklid and maybe even in the rear apron would help. Although with this you run the risk of sucking up some exhaust gas back into the engine bay and into the motor since there is not much airflow down there. Some good size fans on a large radiator with some of that stuff that lowers the temperature of the coolant couldn't hurt. Just some food for horsepower.
Mike |
MR2s and boxsters have front mounted radiators, their side intakes are to help keep air flowing over the engine for additional cooling. The Lambo was designed for a rear mount from the start so the whole shape of the car is aerodynamically optimised for it..
Unfortunately I had to sell the G50 when the chance to buy another car came up, mine was a late one so pretty long, best ones to use are the early ones as they are much shorter, you would still have to cut through the torsion housing tho' I ended up using the 1303s box as I really don't abuse my cars, plus I could move it forwards about 50mm by reversing the rear cradle and that gets the cam covers under the stock body. Rich |
Sorry to hear that you sold the G50. I'd go with a Type 1 box, but the cost of buying a strong one is at least £1500 (G50 money), and I'm still stuck with a 4 speed.... Which would get the engine furthest forward, a short early G50 box or a type one with reversed mount?
I trust the inner wings need to be cut to clear the heads, and engine side trays removed? |
Also, has anyone ever run the coolant tubes through the heater channels?
You could either run the tubes up the inside of the door pillars like the de-mister tubes and then forwards to a front mount rad, or run the tubes all the way to the front of the channels and out of the front bulkhead and along the frame head to the rad? Any thoughts? |
As I am eventually planning on a custom tube-frame chassis , I was planning on running my heater tubes through the frame tunnel . I am still unsure what type of tubes to use , either copper or aluminum . I was planning on doing some more research before hand . Also , with a custom frame , I am able to open up my choices of transmissions . I have been e-mailing back and forth with a custom frame builder , who specializes in VW frames for stuff like Manx buggies and such . Its going to cost about $1500 US . I am hoping this will solve alot of the apperant problems I might encounter .
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Yup, inner wings need cutting/widening and the trays are long gone! Rich |
Just to chime in on rear mounted rads.
The problem is getting airflow. The factory cars had the advantage of a windtunnel and engineers to calculate flow. You CANNOT guess that a few ducts will be plenty. You CANNOT double the volume of coolant to overcome poor airflow, doesn't help at all. Mine now works like a charm. What worked for me? Stripping back down to a more basic system in the rear AND adding a small FRONT mounted rad. I waaayyy over engineered the rear trying to compensate for lack of airflow, all sound ideas, agreed upon by others as the thing to do, got worse with every thing I tried... until I added the Boxster rad up front. Jeff- |
Since we're on the topic of Rads (not trying to hiJack this thread), has any of you tried either a water mist system or even NOS for additional cooling ?
Basically you spay water / NOS on the front of the rad, which helps A LOT with cooling. Obviously not something you want to do all the time, but could be something for trackdays etc. I think it's mostly used for intercoolers but I was wondering if it would also work on a regular rad. Rob. |
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Does anyone sell mega tough type one boxes with the stongest and best of everything (Mendeola are too exoensive, but nice idea...) Plus there is still the 4 speed problem? Surely someone has mated G50 to a scooby before now and know what to do clutch and flywheel wise? It would seem a front rad really is the way to go then? I ain't cutting holes though.... No sireee! I see a big catfish, under valance, C4 'vette style scoop in my future? Coolant tubes in the heater channels? If a type one was used with a reversed mount, would that allow DOHC covers to clear the bodywork? Again, sorry for all the questions. :o |
The problem with reverse mounting a type one is reversing the ring and pinion. There is a lot of controversy about the gears ability to handle the high load in the opposite direction. There are type one transmissions that are built for drag and sand racing which should handle the power of the turbo suby motor. I can't imagine they are cheap though.
Mike |
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I'm not sure about reaversing the rear mount. I think you gain about 2". I'm sure it would help, but the belt covers would still be close for clearance. Quote:
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Mike |
If I mid mounted a Scooby I would use a Subaru trans locked to FWD, much easier and cheaper!
The engine DOES fit under stock bodywork with the cradle reversed (gain just under 2" depending on cradle), I and many others have done it. You can destroy built gearboxes wiht stock engines, it all depends on how you drive. For fast starts preload the gears, no dumping the clutch on every opportunity and it will last a reasonable amount of time. Just choose the right gearing (ie long) and 4 gears isn't a problem at all, turbos like somethign to work against. I'd be nervous about coolant lines in the channels, if they leak how do you replace them?! Rich |
Okay, this is the deal. I Originally wanted to build a tube frame mid engined chassis for a G50 or similar, a 400bhp small block chevy, full custom double wishbone chassis and mount my '64 body to it all..... I have nursed this dream for nearly 10 years now whilst life has happened.
Upon reflection though, I have woken up to the realisation that my name isn't Boyd Coddington, I don't have his facilities, and I certainly don't have the Discovery Channel funding the idea, so until I can afford to get someone to build it for me, it can sit on the shelf for a few more years? Now I'm back in the real world with my modest budget, modest skills and single garage, it would seem a Scooby conversion is a much more realistically achievable project given my budget, facilities and space. My aim is to have a immaculately presented conversion, sort of a resto cal sleeper that may sit in the garage for a few weeks at a time but comes out for a play on sunny days and the occaisional show, with a dozen or so RWYB runs up the strip - without breaking. No burn outs, no dough-nuts but occasional fair but firm use. I won't be side stepping the clutch at 6k on slicks, or power shifting without the clutch, but in the same breath, I don't want to go to all the time and trouble of building something that I need to tread on egg shells with in case I break it? Hope that makes sense? Also, is my theory correct here?.... I think it is much better to start with the most powerful standard engine I can find, than to start with a weaker motor and have to tune it later? My intention would be to use an STi unit 280bhp + from the get go. For the difference in cost, later tuning doesn't seam worth it over starting with the big guns in the first place? |
TL, those are all very achieveable goals.
My first engine choice was a Type-4, but being a College student with a modest budget. I can't very well sit around 2 or 3 years while I save cash for the engine. I decided to go with a Subaru because of the out of box power you get. They were built to go 100,000+ miles with 200+ hp. I ended up buying mine for about $1,000 JDM. You can't touch a big T-1 or a big T-4 for a $1,000. Your transmission criteria makes perfect sense. I'd like the same type of transmission myself. I'm using a 914 right now. But I'm not sure how well 1st will hold up. :rolleyes: I want the best for the money, and I'd rather do it right the first time then have to redo it later. I believe, it is a shared opinion among us water converters to use a much stronger engine to start with. If you like being under the hood of your bug often. Then a big T-1 or a big T-4 might be good. But if you want to hop in it and drive, with an unbelieveable amount of HP and Tourqe. Subaru. :cool: As for later tuning. Ummm... if 200hp in a bug is crazy. Then 300hp in a bug is insane! To help keep cost down, you can always leave it stock for now. Then tune later, also if you think you want to tune it later. Go with an aftermarket ecu over the stock unit. They're about the same cost, but the aftermarket is tuneable later. I read somewhere. Power, Reliability, and Cost. Now pick two. I'm trying to find the best of all three. |
Sounds like a typical contractor - Cheap, fast, quality - pick two.... ;)
I think we're on the same page re trannies. So, what do people recommned for the power / use discussed? Is there a type one tranny spec that will give good long reliable service with the above duty? And if so, what spec? I sense 'G50' on the horizon? |
If you speak to a transmission builder I doubt any would sell you a type 1 for those power levels with any kind of back-up. It would be straight to Mendeola and $£$£
But, the fact is that plenty do last quite well. Unless you go slicks or abuse it a type 1 would last well, but if you want a guarantee just bite the bullet and go G50 and you will be safe for 600bhp+ Rich |
Thought so - I don't mind paying for a G50.
A 200bhp pro built type one motor is £6k minimum + trans A type IV even more + trans A V8 small block 300 bhp 'turn key' crate motor £5k + trans A Sti Scooby 280 bhp+ £2k ish? max + maybe £1500 for a decent G50? Bargain in my book....! Is there any argument for a 915 box instead of a G50 - I'm thinking ease of intall re Bug@5speed conversion parts etc, cost? Any thoughts? |
Martin has had customers with Subaru to 915 with much success.. PM us for details.. Do have a pdf (in german, that I can send you) with pics that may help on fitment.. PM email address if you would like..
VR Alex |
Thanks, pm sent.
What are the differences between the two trans - size? strenght? fitment? ratios? etc. Also, based on standard (ish) tyres, what are the revs / speed / gears numbers typically like? I imagine that a Porsche trans will be pretty long legged? |
It would be a fair bit more work to fit a G50, a 915 can just about squeeze in with the shorter nosecone but I believe it needs lowering to clear the bodywork. You want to go up rather than down wiht the Scooby sump/filter/exhaust depths.
I had a 915 with EJ20t in my speedster and it was OK but I wasn't a big fan of the slow shift (check the Porsche forums) so if I changed from the type 1 trans I'd go straight to a G50, no hesitation.. Rich |
Fair enough, I guess that a short nose cone 915 still wouldn't give enough cam cover room without moving the box forward into the pan?
The scale of the work to fit a G50 doesn't really bother me. It's small change on the grand scale of a full body off resto with IRS conversion. On a different note, just what is the performance like on a 250 - 300 bhp scooby bug like? I've driven some very powerful cars in my time, just wondered how it feels? |
LT, if you are looking for an occasionally driven car like you said, I would recommend just going for a built type 1. Itll be simpler in the long run, and will still make u mess your pants.
Also, curious why are you going for the g50? "Sti Scooby 280 bhp+ £2k ish", + a couple K for the conversion. Sti engines arent cheap. -Ryan |
Hi
Ive fitted a G50 into my 1303, I have also moved it forward 100 mm right through the torsion bar housing. I went so far forward because the Subi motor im using has variable cams and they stick out a little more than other WRX motors and I also wanted better weight distribution. Its not a conversion for the faint hearted. You can see more info here http://www.clubvw.org.au/steve_carter.htm Steve http://www.clubvw.org.au/images/P9170381.jpg |
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