Is this dead or still alive....havnt heards anythign in a bit.

i'm still waiting also. great concept. would love to be able to keep up with my wife's gti when we go out driving and hitting the corners hard.

Jason,

PM sent...:)

Kelly (Cohibra45)

what is pm sent?

"PM sent"
PM = Private message.
He meant he sent Jason a Private Message

this is only true if you are using the mustang II sock width, ride height and everything.

I'm using mustangII spindles on my locost (lotus 7 replica) and after plugging the MII dimensions into a suspension analyser I came to the conclusion that there is a lot of room for improvement. In an unequal length non paralell A-arm suspeension, you want as minimal movement of the roll center as possible, first of all the MII roll center was a little higher than I liked, and second it was all over the map in bump and roll.

I've dialed it in for my setup, so I get less than .05 inches of movement in 2" bump or a 3 degree roll, with the roll center at 1" below ground level. My rear suspension is a little looser woth .08" of movement and a roll center of 2" above ground level.

Once I'm finished this project, I'm going to build a new pan for my beetle with A-arm suspension front and rear, I'm fairly sure it "can " be done without cutting the pan (at least in the front) but it would be easier, stronger and lighter to cut out the old and build an all new sub structure.

If I were to market a kit to replace the stock front end with a A-arm unit I'd make it a weld in, so the owner will have to take some responsibility for it.

Thank you Shadowbug, this is the kind of language that is spoken when you are deciding to build a suspension system, so if you don't know what he's talking about, you need to learn before you suggest that making a suspension system is easy. Shadowbug knows more than I do about suspension geometry because he's worked with it on a program and in the real world, I have not even done that, but I've read a lot about it and paid someone who DOES know what they are talking about to design mine. Any time small changes are made it has a ripple effect on the whole suspension system, and small changes make big differences at the wheel.

S-Bug, when you get to that point, give me a shout, I have many of the pan dimensions laid out perfectly, and the idea of a rear A-arm system has been very intriguing to me too. BTW, you're link no longer works, I'd love to see what you've been up to.

Jason

Rorty did your design didn't he?
He's well known in the Locost circles, he did a great design for and IRS for the locost. Mine was using a different donor, so design is quite different. Plus it looks as though his design is more of a cruiser, where mine is a little more of an aggressive autocross design.

When it comes time to do the beetle I'll definatly drop you a line, I'll probably use standard sheet metal for the pan halves, but center tunnel will be a triangulated tubular structure, so I can tie it directly to the front and rear pickup points.

as to my site, the link is fixed, but I haven't updated it for a while. Hopefully soon I'll get some pictures uploded of the locost build.

I've been thinking...

to design a front suspension there are several "static" Measurements you need to start with.
ride height, roll center, track width and wheelbase
change any one of these and suspension design will not perform as it should.

so how do you design a universal "kit" that anyone can bolt onto the front end of their VW and expect it to perform, considering most will want to alter their ride height from stock, and there will be no set ride height that will make everyone happy.

I think I may have an idea that will allow at least some ride height options, without changing the suspension characteristics too much.
problem is, things start to get expensive.

how much would the average budget be for a kit like this?
a comparable Mustang II kit for a streetrod would be 3-4k

I personally wouldn't want to spend that much, how much would we be willing to spend?

also, Liability, insurance and safety approval costs money too, I'd hate to build a system, and get sued six months later by someone who couldn't bother to read instructions, or was abusing it beyond its designed tollerances.

I'd almost consider doing it, if it weren't for the leagal issues, or sell it as " for display purposes only," with no warranty expressed or implied.

and last issue, copy cats. a guy spends the time and money to design a system, and half a dozen others start building them with no R&D time, in direct competition.

I donno, there's a lot of desire out there for this sort of thing, but is there any money? only way to find out is to try.

Give me 6 months or so, I may have something scabbed together.

Just a little update, I've not had any issues whatsoever with the front suspension. I think I need a little more castor, it doesn't want to self-correct, but it works just fine. No squeaks, no loose feeling, might be a little overdamped right now and may need a little more travel than what I have set up for the "in the weeds" look that I love.

Jason

First Failure...
 

This morning on my wonderful driveway curb(it's more like a canal) I heard a pop and then my car just felt really low. Got to work, scraping on everything on the way, and found the main shock mount had failed where it welds to the tubing. The original design had a buttress here, but it was changed as part of the area interfered with the shock. Instead of just removing the offending area itthe whole buttress was removed. I thought it looked like a problem point, and sure enough it is. So, I'll probably just bandage it up and ad it to the "to change" list! This is a prime examply on why I havn't sold this suspension to anyone, R&D is an important part of equipment development. I'll get a pic of the actual break later.

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/439564.jpg

Jason

Thanks for the updates Jason !

Sandeep

that is some bad luck jason , but i have every faith in your inginuity to overcome this minor setback and improve the original design:)
jon

No, I didn't just let all the air out of my airbags, this is what it dropped to...

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/439674.jpg

I wonder if the welding was done on both sides of each vertical component it might have been OK...

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/439675.jpg

Jason

The break looks pretty clean ... almost as if the welding had not been completed in this area ?

It looks like it could be fixed with no redesign .. just proper welding. ?

Sandeep

It is a very clean break, but the design is wrong too. I think had it been TIGed on both sides it would have been OK, but it is still a weak spot, there needs to be an extension of the current bracket to cover the side of the square tubing, not just the top.

Jason

I think the new ride height looks KEWL!:cool:

I think something very similar happened to the rear of the bus but I never got a detailed descrip or any pics from the guy that broke it. Glad you are taking it in stride, really just a minor development hiccup, yes? No real damage to the car or you?


Jeff-

Got her all fixed up a couple of weeks ago, but no GL forums!!!

Here's the welds, only about 30-50% welded through, so that was an issue, but really the design of the arm needed some help.

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/451507.jpg

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/451506.jpg

Here's the repair. The welds are pretty rough, I'm not that great a welder and it's MIG compaired to the old TIG, but I wager it will hang on a little better...

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/451505.jpg

Jason

Volkdent have you made any progress on your wish bone set up? I'm currently looking into getting the red9 unit.

If by progress you mean usage, I have, but I havn't built V2.0 yet, I've got a 8 month old rug rat now so bug progress has slowed significantly.

I'm not so sure about the Red9 unit, a few iffy design flaws in my eyes, but you'll be money ahead on shipping!!! I'd talk to a few Red9 owners if you can to see how they are getting along before I'd purchase, just hate to see someone plunk down good money for something that looks cool but really doesn't function that well. It might be the dogs bollocks, I just havn't heard one way or another.

Jason

I have read all of the posts about your design and whether or not the red9 kit is any good, unfortunately I have been unable to talk to anybody that owns one.

I think the cost:eek: and probably forum posts have put a lot of people off, BUT I have spoken to Simon at red9 and he seems to know his stuff. I'm going to see the unit in the flesh soon and hopefully have a test drive .

We will see I guess!

Please let us know what you find out.

Jason

Hey,

http://www.robinson-race-cars.co.uk/

Try talking to this guy and go and visit him, He's based in Basingstoke. I've been to his workshop and seen what he gets up to and its all very impressive.

Upon other things I approached him to build a wisebone front set up for my Type 3 and he wasn't fazed by the though of doing it (Unlike me :lmao:). He was very happy to talk about it and offered to do the work for me as he's been doing similiar work for over 30years now.

we didn't touch on what prices would be like, I know the price of the Red 9 one is very appealing, although unfortunatly like you I have only heard controversial things about it through the forums.

I hope this can help you to come to a conclusion

:thumbup:

If it can be built Andy Robinson can either do it or has already done it.
If it can't be built he probably doesn't believe it and will do it anyway...

I do note that his race car prep is confined to drag racing so it might not be 'horses for courses'. I would not be at all confident about designing a drag car suspension but talk to me about highway (rough and smooth) and it will be a different matter.

Cheers Kai4130 for the suggestion, dont doubt Andy Robinson could make one but I fear it would be £££££!

EvilC if you look on Andy's website there are a few customers cars which are not drag racers Jaguar sport for one, check out the XJR15:eek:

Luckily I have tracked down a couple of people who have experience of the Red9 kit, one was indifferent the other rated it highly. Luckily the guys that rated the kit are an outfit that set up suspension for track cars, notably Porsche track cars.

I will be getting one as soon as funds allow and I convince my girlfriend I REALLY do need it!!!:lmao:

I would be more excited if the builder did Lotus Super 7 style kit cars, I suspect the knowledge base there would be the most appropriate for the bug kit.

Jason

There are only 4 customer cars that are not drag racers. The overriding majority are strip cars. Of the four only the XJR15 and the Ligier have suspension components fabricated by ARRC and they are to preset designs and basic main production bits. The XJR15 is disappointingly low grade and not what you would have expected from a top grade GT style racer. ARRC's fabrication skills are not questioned but as a designer of suspension systems for turning corners I have even more doubts.

Thanks for that, it just reinforced my thoughts...

Jason

As I said there were a few, sorry you didn't like what you saw.:(

I went to Stoner park at the weekend and met Simon from Red9, had a proper look at the wishbone front end. I am no expert but it is well made and the guy certainly talks a good game. It was also good to see how all the adjustments (there are quite a few!) are made.

Just so happened whilst I was there a customer who had been up for a test drive and put his money where his mouth is came over, he really rated it. It was nice to hear the opinions of someone who had experienced it first hand.

I think I am going to take the plunge and get one myself as soon as I can afford it, I'll let you know what the verdict is when I do.:)

Sweet!!! Keep us posted.

Jason

WOW, Just found this...not bolt on, but they are working on a Type 1 version apparently. I suggested they make it bolt on, if you feel this might be up your alley let Kevin know.

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/584184.jpg

Mendeola S2 Chassis

Jason

SWEET! :D
looks really nice...

Chris.

Now, that looks like a properly designed system!

My only observation is that the bottom of the coilovers looks vulnerable so its a track/smooth highway vehicle only. However, it ought not to be too difficult to move the whole unit up with shorter coil overs (if available) or even use a rocker and put the units inboard......... It could also do with some nice rose/heim/spherical joints to replace the squidgy poly bushes for some real control.

Clive

UBR DUB saw its first autocross this weekend. She was a bit of a handful, as you can see LOTS of roll, plus without LSD, the inner rear wheel would spin really easily on exits. I'm going to bolt up the stock Golf II sway bar and see what that does, then go bigger from there, and finally add a front bar.

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/590951.jpg

Jason

Nice! So besides the wheelspin and body roll how'd you do?

Kind of in the middle. The fastest car was a Super 7 knockoff with 12" Avon slicks and a V8, one of the slowest a VW New Beetle.

There was a guy who competes there regularily with a Chrysler Crossfire with sticky tires, and I think we had the same time. I ended up with a best run of 46.8s, the slick guys were 42-44s, and many in the 48-51s.

For street tires and it's first outing, I was pretty impress. Tire temps were even accross, let out a little more air, she's sitting right at 1990 lbs now, so with 205s up front and 255s in the rear, I was down to about 27psi.

I need to get the rear swaybar on and see how that affects things.

Jason

Jason,

What's your tyre temps front/rear? I wonder if you need a stiffer front bar before adding a rear? It doesn't look as though you have too much understeer.

Clive

As I remember they were about 97 deg. It's not so much about grip on the front, although I did get some understeer, the main problem was getting power down due to roll. I don't have a LSD yet, so I would be just spinning the inside tire unless I waited for the car to settle, so I'd like to keep the rear wheels planted better. My weight distribution is 60/40, so I thought I'd start with the stock small front bar in the back and see what it did for me.

I've not had ANY experience with sway bar selection besides just purchasing uprated one's for various cars over the years, so I'm in the dark as to what I'll get from what I add.

Jason

I have been looking at this particular setup and have found the engineering to be superb. What do yoy think?
http://www.eyeball-engineering.net/a-arm.html