Exess toe out with 944 alloy arms
 

Hi

As the title says I'm having issue with excess toe out on the rear with early 944 alloy arms. I have the arms pushed as far forward as I can in the spring plate, the spring plate end (as in rear most portion) is now is touching the arm.

I searched and I couldn't find anybody else with this issue.

Steve

Have you tried swapping the washers/spacers around at the pivot bushing? I have both of them on inside (frame horn side) to get better alignment with spring plates.

Funny you should mention that as I have probably the same problem, but then with alu arms!
It showed up at the alignment job and the main reason one side is not optimally done at the moment... It started after I used heim joints (sp?) for the inner pivots (and bushed the outers with elephant racing brass/urathan)

Only remedy is taking the spring plate off, filing the holes further and have another alignment. Not a fun job and I have put it off for most of last season...

Hi

I had the same issue with my 1303 daily driver/sons car, it has steel 944 arms and the very end of the spring plate touches the trailing arm, its only slightly toeing out and only showed up at the alignment shop, Im going to take a bit of the end of the spring plate to correct this.

On my other 1303 which is using 1986 alloy arms the toe out is very noticeable to the naked eye, moving the trailing arms any more forward could cause the wheel to be too far forward in the arch.

Good idea wrenchnride I will try moving the washers to the inside.

Steve

I set one side with both shims/washers on the OUTSIDE, and the other with both on INSIDE (frame horn side). Looking at the pix you can see the springplate flexing bad on the side with them on the outside. The other is not flexing as much.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g3...0.jpg~original

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g3...1.jpg~original

Hi

I've been thinking about moving the shims to inside, I think it would make my issue worse, it would give even more toe out.

Steve

It was just a thought. You can see from the pix why I moved the spacers. Haven't done alignment yet to see where I stand.

to me it would make sense to go shims inside, bolted to the spring plate as far back in the slots you could OR
shims to the outside & bolts thru springplate all the way forward, havent played with them yet myself but going on rough geometry/physics that makes sense, ive been doing stuff to align doors at works thats similar, up to go down, in to go out & such, good luck steve, hope its all approved soon enough too, you have motivated me to get stuck into mine as much as i can for aussie day too, starting with a HUGE garage clean/organise from the 1000 odd jobs for other people thats left a mess! best get back to it hey

Trailing arms
 

Hi, I have two set of the Aluminum trailing arms. But if using them will open another problem, I don't see why I should. The backing plate for the 944 caliper and disc setup will attach to the steel IRS trailing arm. So please what's the advantage again in choosing them?

Also can someone show the toe out condition for a point of view where is shows the most?
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k9...t.jpg~original

To add more track. Also more room for wider wheels without hitting spring plates. Thats my reason anyway :)

Track
 

Good morning, on the picture I posted those cookie cutters I had turned and removed the outter rim. I had the guy re-position the offset of the rim, in order for the 10 rim and tires not hit the trailing arms. Although I had to have 4 inch extra wide fender to do it, it added track. So is anyone happy with their fix?
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k9...1.jpg~original

i seem to be having the same toe problem with my alu arms :lol: think i will be having a play with the inner pivot spacers. i currently have them both on the outside!

Be careful, if you set both spacers on the inside,(and have red urethane buushings) the bushing will come off. Don't ask me how I know :P
I also tried both spacers on the outside, (I think this is what the manual says) and the bushing also came out a few mm's but stopped inside that "cage".
Right now I run one shim on the inside and one on the outside and it looks good.

About the toe-out problem, I don't seem to have it at all... actually the setting I run now, was done as a trial, to see how much toe-in + camber I can get, and I can say it's visible with the naked eye, so it's alot! (mostly the toe-in, not the camber).
Can this be super - non super beetle related maybe?

Hi

Thanks for everyones thoughts.

I have been thinking about ways to overcome this issue.

I fitted alloy arms for a number of reasons, I've moved my motor forward 100 mm, using alloy arms I have to use longer axles, this cuts down the CV angle.

Marco on Shoptalk has come up with some adjustable inner pivot bushes to overcome excessive camber on lowered cars, I think I could use this idea but instead of gaining camber I could use them to move the pivot point for more toe in.

The other idea was to take a bit of the alloy arm on the inside pivot and shorten the urethane bush as well, this would turn the pivots inwards giving more toe in.

Its hard to photograph the problem, you can get an idea hopefully. I have attached 2 of Marcos photos from Shoptalk

Steve

100mm forward
 

one inch equals 25.44mm, which is to say 100mm a little short of 4 inches forward. :o wow have you completed this part of your project yet? The reason for my inquiry is due to having 3 Super Beetles. I've been toying with the ideal of using a SVX Subaru engine in one of the three. I believe the four inches will allow me to have everything under to hood. I have the core SVX engine and the adapter plate. I may even connect it to a automatic transmission. Would you please keep me posted as to your updates. At present I have just had shoulder surgery and can't do any lifting of the adapter plate to the trans axle.

Hi effvee

I've done a bit of a build thread on this site, try searching my user name. I went 100 forward because I fitted a G50 transmission. A angry SVX motor in a bug would sound insane:D

Steve

That also sounds insane in a 2-door impreza:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqnuj58lFQI

I usually don't like/understand subaru motors in bugs (putting it mildly), but that motor when tuned, is something else!

Hi

I've corrected my excessive toe.

A local drag racer Dangerous Dave Butler made an offer to make these units on AussieVeedubbers. He was aiming at using them to raise the pivot point for radically lowered cars.

I fitted them with the pivot point as far back as possible, I was then able to pull the arms forward on the spring plate to get the toe out corrected, I still had to move the arms beyond the Porsche adjusting position with a big screw driver.

Steve

http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/...7.jpg~original

http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/...8.jpg~original

http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/...9.jpg~original

Glad to see they worked steve and the issue is finally rectified. Is DB gonna stock them or just make them on request?

Hi Ron

DB will make them to order, you need to send him your bushes, bolts and 2 washers

Steve

Does the problem still exist when uniball setup is used?

Hi

I'm not sure if the uniball would cure the issue, I was moving the trailing arm forward to correct the toe in, it was in a position way beyond the normal Porsche adjustment. It still is pushed way forward with these offset bolts but not as severe.

Nobody else seems to have a this problem as severely as me.

Steve

Steve, do you think your chassis might have got warped when you cut the splined section out of the torsion housing?

Hi Rich

That thought has crossed my mind.

Steve

Those who had the issue and had an alignment job - what toe out was mesured degree wise out of interest? I am coming up to doing mine and will be interesting to see the difference - if any- compare to you guys. especially as i did an IRS conversion opposed to a factory IRS'd floorpan

Cheers

Deano

I just measured mine and the best i can get it 2 degrees toe out :shocked:

looks like i'l have to get some adjustable inner pivots made.

Maybe it's something to do with the ally arms?

It does seem that way with so many people having the same issue.
i read somewhere a while ago that marco mansini had made adjustable inner pivots but cant find it anywhere now :(

haha i dont believe it. he is only 25 mins from where i live!

thanks rich i think il be making a call/visit!

I hate all of you guys! :P

HHM Im watching this with interest as im taking my bug of the road to re build the cogbox and motor....while im doing that i thought id chuck my ally arms on (i have the early units)
So hearing a few of you have problems is interesting i hope there is a fix, im going to hold of installing until you guys have found the way.

I welded my type3 irs brackets on so i hope i have them in the correct place, tracking seem fine with the 944 metal rear arms.

Did the MarcoMansi rear bolts work for you

turbonutta are you the fella from chesham? if so was your bug up sale last year?

Spoke to marco and he is out of stock at the moment but will let me know when he has some more made.

Indeed i am, I PM'd you once!, you still in the chesham?.

Sell my what....never..had her since i was 16.

Ok i will need a set to then any idea on timeline for those

i thought so! sorry - ive got a bad memory....

i live over in hertfordshire now (welwyn garden city) but still visit my parents regularly in chesham! would be good to meet you and your bug!

i swear i saw your bug for sale .... must have been a similar one!

no idea on timeline - i asked him if he would have a batch done before le bug show - Spa in august but he just said he;d let me know. I really want to sort this problem before i put lots of miles on the bug though!

Dean, Marco is about 5 mins up the road from me. If you are going to pop down let me know when and we can grab some time :)

Al - Definately! You going to Volksworld?

It really is a small world - turns out Turbonutta live 3 roads down from my parents :lmao: i lived there for 10 years!!!!!

Still as usual undecided! I really should trek out to the Ace sometime but now that I'm with polo it takes the fun out a little!

I come on here to read about brakes and find you lot talking about Chesham!

My grandparents used to live on Manor Way. Used to to love that house, found out a few years back a developer bought it, knocked it down and built two houses in its place :-(

:lmao: small world MR BIG didnt you buy the rear brakes of me when i was in wycombe...:rolleyes:

Any way back to the thread i received all my 944 early subframe today:D so im going to start the swap of my 944 metal arms...i didnt realise that i now need some longer drive shafts:angry:

Have all you guys who have done this added a shim/shims or large washers behind the springplate in front of the knobbly bush in the chassis to allow the 944 plate hardware to clear.

Also in the four early arms i have they are all missing the lower shock mount/bolt is this normal..

Mr Mansi still has no stock off the irs adjusta bolts i will ask my mate with a machine shop if he can knock me some up out of stainles stock any body else need some..!?