hydraulic clutch!!!!!
 

hi guys, for the life of me i cant find pics of anyone with a superbeetle pan that has pedals in standard location (with master cylinder/s going through the pan to under the fuel tank area) & im REALLY interested to know if anyone has achieved this in the limited space available, the only way i can work it out is if the inner & outer skin where the brake MC sits is cut out 7 modified so that you could sit the clutch MC right against the tunnel & have the brake MC moved over more, closer to the outside of the pan (RHD of course) then running the lines from the brake MC through the pan, would need 2x 15-20mm holes to suit the MC location, im tempted to try it, the standard pedals would need the pushrod position adjusted to suit obviously but im yet to see any reason why it wouldnt work other than needing to re-route the fuel line to the exit the other side, any thoughts/pics of various setups would be awesome, other alternative would be cut a panel from the bottom plate of the tunnel & mount a pushrod/MC inside the tunnel where the hook sits but im not keen on that idea, ive been staring at my floorpan with a kombi MC & my tie rods etc mounted onto it for the last hour or so & they are the only things i can think of....
Input would be REALLY appreciated, thanks again:)

Hi

Have a look at Mick058 buildup on AVD, they did something similar to what I want to do.

Steve

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...9.jpg~original

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...0.jpg~original

hi steve, yeah i checked his car out at westi's when i was in sydney a few months ago, didnt get my head under the pedal side of the car though, the wheel was still on on that side, the standard fronts have different layout to supers as far as free space goes but yeah his setup is about the only one i can find decent pics of, i think i may have to experiment with my spare pan to see if everything could be squeezed in how i think it could work, ill study the thread once more though, cheers :)

Hi

I'm going to do something similar with my car, but the pushrod will be mounted much lower on the pedal and with a super you have lots of room once you go past the brake MC, you will just need a long pushrod.

Or you could have the pushrod going through the pan at a steep angle and mount the clutch MC on an angle above the clutch MC.

I don't live very far from Westis shop, so I pop in a lot see what they are up to and get them to do the odd bit of fab work for me.

Steve

have a look at this, might save you all the grief of modding your super

http://www.vwispwest.com/product.php...cat=416&page=1

Cheers

still no luck finding suitable setup on a superbeetle pan... has anyone used the smallcar bellhousing on anything? im curious for feedback on quality of it, im getting to the point where i have to buy either the RJES or smallcar one & id prefer hydraulic clutch if i can do it... a local vw shop likes my idea but it all comes down to sourcing a suitable master cylinder, ill post a link to this on aussieveedubbers aswell in the hope a local sees it...

I think this is the way to go - it ticks all my boxes:
http://www.apracing.com/info/index.a...Pull+Type_2342
I show this for the principle rather than as a purchase item as it is rather too expensive. I'm sure that with some fabrication this could be easily made. The advantages as I see it are:
1) All the cylinders are in the car out of the crud.
2) Pull cylinders have a reputation of being smoother.
3) Twin brake cylinders offer great bias adjustment
4) Raising the floor by 50mm gives a much more comfortable pedal action (mine has it and I can't recommend it more highly), unless of course you have clown sized feet!
5) Maintenance is a doddle.
Yesterday I STRUGGLED with putting new flexible pipes on the dual m/c connections on a 1303 super and I really can't see how putting the the clutch m/c there as well do nothing but make matters worse. Siting the clutch m/c next to the brake m/c will also mean that a pipe from the resevoir will have to wind its way from under the tank up into the front luggage compartment - this needs the application of the KISS principle.

Clive

Hi

The setup that Flintstones suggested is good but I'm not sue about having the MC in the tunnel.

I agree that dual cylinders are very good idea, I'm not sure about where STIDUB lives in the our wide brown land but adjustable bias MCs are not allowed on a street car in the state where I live. Have a crash, insurance company pays an engineer to inspect your car if he finds anything illegal no insurance policy.

I was going to T my fluid supply off one of the brake MC feed lines or just have reservoir on top of the clutch MC.

I agree fitting the brake lines can be a pain, but its not like they're spark plugs or similar that need changing often, keep the fluid clean and they should last 10 or more years.

On my bug and STIDUBs car I assume access could be gained through the radiator area, formally the spare wheel area, this would make things much easier.

Steve

I saw this setup somewhere and thought it looked interesting.

Hi Steve,

I am surprised that dual m/cs are not allowed where you live, I can't think of any logical reason for banning them?? However, we all have strange construction and use regulations that are more often borne out of primitive technological theory/practice that is no longer applicable. (I wonder how you get on with foreign rally cars for example that will all inevitably have balance bar brakes and are used on the public highway between stages?and other temporary visiting vehicles)

I don't like the idea of fluid resevoirs low down in the position shown in the photos. Apart from a serious access problem filling/inspecting the fluid the whole resevoir/master cylinder is in a vulnerable area from road debris etc as the amount of crap that was sitting on the fillet plate of our 1303 super will testify to. Also, it is highly vulnerable from water ingestion on those rare occasions that we attempt through water splashes, fords and torrential down pours that we now have to suffer.

If the clutch and brake master cylinders are sited next to each other on the outside of the napoleans hat bulkhead then it would be wise IMO to site separate resevoirs on the bulkhead under the 'screen in full view under the bonnet so that they are easily monitored, filled and changed.

Clive

Hi Clive

The nannas at the RTA (Road Transport Authority) are worried that you might adjust your brakes while driving on the road and have a horrible crash.

We just had new rules introduced by the RTA which banned cars being lowered or raised more than 50mm, there has been a temporary stay put on these rules after a huge outcry form the aftermarket parts industry.

But when we lower a car it must still have a minimum headlight height 600mm.

Foreign rally cars would still have to be registered in their country of origin I guess.

The setup that I posted pictures of could be improved with a remote reservoir.

Steve

hi steve, yes thats the style of mounting im looking for! too late though & personally id rather the pan/body would be easily swapped, hence the reason for not wanting to mount the clutch mc through the body shell, kinda like this...
http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/a...4.jpg~original
now i realise that a remote resi would be better but i doubt access will be all that difficult for me since the wheel well is non existant, besides how often do you change fluid? i may look into a remote one later, just bought this for sizing really

for those that feel like a look heres the rest of the pics im sharing http://s975.photobucket.com/albums/ae239/STIDUB/

Once the body's in place I found access to be very limited with steering, damper, dual m/c and pipes all in the way - access being through the wheel arch only. I can't see how removing the spare wheel well will improve it with the steering rods and damper between the well and the m/c.
When I changed the little flexis on the resevoir pipes I found I could only get one hand and the tips of the other fingers in to do it so checking and filling a clutch m/c wil require bottles, tubes and mirrors and I would be paranoid about dirt entering the resevoir.
BTW I change my brake fluid every 24 months to maintain optimum braking. The difference with new fluid in is always noticeable (whether that is down to new fluid or the bleeding is debatable) and the ease of doing it with a simple pressure bleeder and the relative cheapness of brake fluid makes it a no brainer to being part of the normal maintenance schedule. In many ways it is quicker, simpler and cleaner than changing the engine oil. Besides, whats good enough for Ferraris and Porsches is good enough for me! ;)

Clive

Hi

I bought a vacuum bleeder, it works really well, before that I used to use a broom handle, pump the pedal up by hand and keep pressure on with the broom handle and reach across and release the nipple, I was good at twister when I was kid.

Steve

Wish I had bought a vacuum bleeder as I had a real problem with air locks in the reservoir and leaks on the reservoir to m/c pipes - hence new flexis and fiddling around the m/c last w/e. On 'normal' cars the pressure bleeder works well and also give a useful extra capacity to the reservoir whilst bleeding.

Clive

http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/v....php?tid=78380

Bumping, anyone?? ^ link to my local forum, hoping across 3 forums i can find more info....

Hi

I finally got a chance to look at my bug again the other night, I noticed that where you put the master cylinder in your photo that there is few bolt holes for body mounting, they would make an ideal spot to bolt a box to hold the master cylinder.

Just had an idea!!!

I think they way that the RHD pedal setup makes everything a bit cramped.

What about mounting the 2 cylinders how you have them in the above photo and making-up a pedal assembly that pushes straight onto the master cylinders or altering the stock pedals to do the same?

Steve

steve, mounting them loosely where they are sitting in the pic & making pedals & pushrods to suit the cylinders was precisely what i was getting at, its a bulkhead/napolean hat mod & a pedal change, as far as neat installs go & sensible mounting it seems to be the best option, honestly if your doing this conversion some pedals wouldnt be hard to make up, when i can call customveedub ill ask them about getting it modded to suit, once thats done theres nothing really stopping it happening, mirror the long brake line to the opposite side of the pan & you couldnt get much neater right?

the box idea is kind of redundant as the idea was to mount them directly to the section of floorpan like the original & making pedal setup easier, why make things more complex than need be? i hope your coming to warwick in october? if its done by then (which it should be) i may tow the completed pan up & discuss :)

Hi

I reckon you could use the existing pedals, on the brake pedal just weld another section onto it to mimic the VW brake pedal, then on the clutch pedal just attach a clevis like in the photos I posted of Micks car.

I hope I can get to Warwick, I may have to work that weekend.

Steve

Hi

I got the weekend off for Warwick, now I have to get my finger out and build a 1776 for the daily 1303, teid of doing road trips with a stocker.

I had a bit of play around today with a stock brake M/C and a clutch M/C.

I really think the two M/Cs can be fitted together side by side OK, I'm going to make a up cardboard template to test my theory.

Steve

Hopefully these photos will get across what Im saying.

way ahead of ya steve :) knocking up the bits in sheet yesterday/today & probably getting custom veedub to get some cut perfectly to suit while my pan is in the shop getting the adjuster fitted to the rear, ok not quite way ahead but you get the idea, shall we compare placements once finished?

ok, the kombi mc mounting is different to the bugs, im sure your aware, slightly different angle, putting them in the bug positions(rotating to suit) would make bleeding difficult as the res tubes wouldnt be at the top, that said with the integral res mc i have currently the positions relating to each other dont allow enough room for the brake switch in the kombi position(using the correct rotation position not the bug) i then considered the wilwood mc but theres no position for the brake switch, so a T peice would be needed, that said ill play with the kombi mc & my clutch mc locations to see if they can be massaged together, perhaps a 90* fitting could solve the problem but im not content to use that as the solution as yet, i might have a crack with the bug mc too just for universal applications :)

Hi

The angle of the Beetle MC is perfect, it allows it to fit snugly against the clutch MC and the angle of the MC also helps when it gets down close to the taper in pan bulk head. For a T piece you can use one of the 3 way couplings on the front of supers or the rear of all bugs.

Steve

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/a...s.jpg~original
Hi steve, you mean a little like that? :P
yeah its mighty cosy, also need adapter fitting for the wilwood mc as it doesnt suit the vw- damn americans & imperial measurements, im curious what the wilwood mc would fit like too, as its mounting is vertical like the clutch (RHS of pic)

that should make sense to anyone thats looking at this thread i hope
the other possibility is tilting the kombi mc to suit the bug mounts hole positions- that may cause a bleeding issue though, hopefully ill have a chat to someone at work about overcoming that though, or see if its fine as is from the guys on avd that use kombi mc's

on a side note, whats a 944 or others you guys have used, mount like so the lines to the resi are pointed straight up?

Hi

The MC in my photo uses American threads, its left over from an experiment I did a few years ago, I just had hard steel line made with one of each thread at each end.

I saw somewhere on the net an adaptor to fit a 944 MC to a Beetle.

Steve

hi steve, update for the template im making up, with the kombi mc & wilwood mc in line with each other the kombi mc would require trimming of the shell where the lip is that sits over the edge of the pan, the bug one on the other hand, perfect, im going to do some figures with the brakes/required fluid volume to stop effectively to see what mc would be better while i have the option, the other option is a 25mm wilwood as ive previously mentioned as its mounting space is significantly smaller than both, the other option is lower the mounts about 10mm on the horizontal on the kombi mc & have a bent pushrod to keep the pedal travel/ brake piston travel ration the same, does that make sense? 10mm is probably a fair bit more than necessary but it would fit just fine, i wish i had my pan & pedals at work today! should have this sorted out by this time next week! and INSTALLED by warwick!! anyone else keen on this design or is it just steve & myself?

Hi

I'm planning a bit of alone time with my bug tonight. I'm going to draw up plans to see if its going to work and then get my around to where I'm at, I haven't done much to it since Christmas.

As far as sizing goes I found 19mm fine on my old 1302 with 4 spots all round and Jak found the 19mm worked well even with 40mm 4 spots.

But then again if you go Willwood you change master cylinder size very easily.

Steve

Hi

I reckon that its going to work OK moving the stock super master cylinder to the right and then there is room to fit the clutch M/C next to it.

I wont do any of this until the body comes off the pan, its too hard with the body on.

Steve

I was going to do this and was happy there is enough room. In the end the pedal set-up I went for wasn't too expensive and comes with bias adjustment which I think will be very beneficial considering how different my chassis set-up will be compared with before...

With more research & number crunching i found the willwood mc wouldnt suit as its stroke it about 10cm LESS than vw's the biggest wilwood (1") works out about 1/2 way between the 19mm beetle & the 24mm kombi :) i think ill allow for either standard vw one for mine & see how it goes
as far as i can tell the bigger mc will make pedal feel harder as its moving more capacity, that said both should work alright, just depends which one works BEST in real life, numbers arent everything in my opinion
on that note, to fit the kombi mc & stop the need for trimming the lip on the body shell at all, drop the MC 10mm on the vertical axis, after positioning it hard against the clutch mc
make a pushrod to suit, for simplisitic sake call the pushrod a 10mm bolt, cut the head off, get another & cut the head off, rotate the threaded ends to opposite directions, weld the smooth sections(on longer bolts) together, makes the pushrod:pedal movement ratio exactly the same despite the drop in height :)

Hi Rich

I priced your system and it worked out pretty expensive to get down here with the exchange rate, it looks like a very well engineered product, our local authorities wont allow adjustable brake bias on a road car.

Steve

so steve, how did your weekend go? mine came up with a problem that the hydraulic hard line is going to be VERY cosy with the pan, the brake line to the rear should fit in an almost factory style though, just about at the stage where im cutting the original peice out & doing the final template/new peice to weld in, exciting times, looking good to have it done by the weekend, also... have you put any thought into the pedals yet? getting pivot points strong enough on modidied standards is going to be difficult, may end up just making some nice new ones to suit, will see how it goes though, hope you had a win with yours?

(pics of my progress later- im on break at work :) )

Hi

Got a bit done then went to V Force for a beer. I'm happy with what Ive come up with, but I will wait until the body is off the pan to finalise it.

I was planning to use stock pedals, the clutch wont be a big deal, just fit boss to it to take a clevis.

The brake pedal needs a bit more thought. I was thinking of making lever to fit around the pedal shaft a bit like the stock brake lever, make it nice and thick and weld it on.

I don't think it will be very hard to duplicate the stock hard line for the clutch, it could even be run in the tunnel or on the passengers side in the same location as the brake line.

Steve

my mc for my clutch runs at a 45deg angle towards the bulkhead it mounts to so im running the hard line right up & over it then down the tunnel, not sure if i should run it over the tunnel & mirror the brake line or run it above & switch over to the clutch arm side at the forks... pics shortly... worked longer than normal yet again :)

mounted loosely, need to grind out the hole for the kombi MC 1 mm more as theres no 42 mm holesaw available at the time, the holes to the top of the clutch MC & to the extreme left of the brake MC is for the hard lines to go to the rear of the car, best compromise of location & functionality with the space available
http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/a...0.jpg~original
give people an idea of how its mounted/layed out
http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/a...9.jpg~original
should be ground out tomorrow & then its cutting time on the floor pan!, oh & because of the extra holes, im using thicker steel but also will weld in some piping between the 2 plates, for the bolt holes, pushrod & hard lines :)

Closely watching both of these setups. Its good to see some things being done on RHD cars :)

Rich, question. Where are you going to be mounting your fluid bottles? And are you anticipating much trouble with running lines to them?

Al

Hi

Us poor RHD people are in the minority, we need all the help we can get.

That looks good. The factory setup with steel tube spacers meant that the stock MC was only actually mounted on the outside section of the pan.

Steve

cheers steve, the body lip will still need minor clearancing but nothing a little stitch welding wont cure (the lip is spot welded for those playing at home)
the idea of using welded tube would mean, no leaks into the cavity, no dropping spacers & a far stronger mount for the cylinders, afterall, theres now an extra 35mm hole & more than a few 8 & 16mm holes now, will see how i go for sourcing small sections of tube :)
bent pushrod to make the pivot the same height will prove interesting, on a downer, my floorpan has to wait another two weeks, minor setback but at least its less rushed for me personally.

Shame when the rest of life interferes with the Vdubs!

Hi

If your looking for tubing, find some old bug seats, the tubes in the a squab adjustment are the correct size. I used them for a mixer for some floor levelling stuff.

Steve

Thats one slick garage you've got there Steve!

It can't be the house because noboby does work on houses when there's bugs to do!!!!!!;):eek:

A moment of weakness, it was the house, got to keep er indoors appeased