Wishbone suspension bolt on kit
 

Hi everybody,

there was this huge coil over thread on the STF and I was talking to couple of people about a wishbone setup for a B/J Standard bug. Mark Payne from PaynePrecision is interested in making a setup if there is enough interest. Attached is a rendering of the setup.

Here is the estimated cost of the setup:


ballpark price:

fabricated parts (frame & wishbones ) $550-650
shocks (coilovers) $300-skys the limit
rack and pinion $250-300
heim ends and balljoints $100
----- total $1200-up depending on shock choice

I am very interested in a setup. If you are, please let me know.
The chance is bigger for the setup being made if there are a couple of people willing to buy a setup. It will use stock balljoints and spindles. If I get more infos I will post them here.

I will talk to Mark tonight so give me some feedback. I will discuss some slight changes with him that I think will make this setup more suitable for people with painted cars. I am thinking of changing the rear frame design to accomodate the original wheel well.

Thanks,
Alex

Please post your feedback now.

Alex

looks good :D

I can see it bolts to the frame head where the beam would normally attach. Does the rear of the sub frame bolt to the body mount points?

Is the track going to be stock, or slightly narrowed ?

The track width should stay stock. Since you do not have the trailing arms of the front beam there should be plenty of room for bigger rims and still have a good turning radius.

I will ask about the body mount points but I would think so.

Alex

Hmmm... that looks a bit like mine.... :cool:

and here's the rest... :D

Moog,

did you make it?
Looks very interesting. How about the steering and were does the setup mount to on the frame head?

More infos please and more pics if possible. Can you still use the stock tank?

Would you duplicate it?
Alex

I must confess that i didn't make it myself. It came from an old UVA kit-car - they originally based it on the VW pan, but evolved it into a tubular chassis with double wishbones up front. They went bust years ago, but this setup surfaced recently on the front of a Buggy, and though i'm in the middle of another project i bought this for when i get back on my serious project.

It's meant to be welded to the front of a tube frame chassis, so will need modding to fit my bug. I intend to cut off the frame head and weld this to the chassis (with some mods done to the frame you see)

The top cross bar interferes with the inner wings and fuel tank, so i thought i'd change it about so that the shocks are inboard and at 45° angle with some rocker levers to actuate them.

The frame you see has mounts for a steering rack, but i already have a steering rack in my bug (It's not a late 1303, its a tosion bar beam with a Renault steering rack) so i'll see what pans out.

When i get on to it i thought i'd try and copy it for a friends Turbo T4 '51 Bug, and may then do some more copies. Don't hold your breath though - it'll be a while before i get on it - i'm trying to mount hidden radiators for my daily driver 2.1 WBX bug at the moment!

Excuse the dumb questions but:

What are the advantages of this type of setup?

How would this setup be lowered?

if ya dont ask....... :D

darren

The lowering will be done via a coil over shock. The advantage of this setup is that there is no side movement in the wishbone arms in comparrison to the front beam trailing arm setup.

Alex

Thanks Alex

Ok if the kit was a complete bolt on ie. no fabricating required on my part i would be interested.

Would everything bar the shocks be supplied in that price?

Here is some additional information:

We need 10 people who are willing to buy the setup before they will actually make it. This is because of the material cost and work that needs to be put into it and also they need to get a car so that they can make sure that there will be no surprises.
A 25% deposit has to be made. This is for the frame and wishbones only. I do not know how much it would be if you want the entire setup. You can see estimates in the first post. The total of 1200$ and up would include everything.

I am not sure if this is going to fly. I know that a lot of people say they are interested but then when it comes to committing to it they back out.

Unfortunately I am running out of time......I never thought I would say this. I would love to get a setup but I only have until the end of January. That is when my body gets painted. If I could make one myself I would do it but I do not have the skills.

So let me know what you think,

Alex

Damn, this thread has got me thinking again!
It's perfect timing for me really as the Ghia I am building has no front end and I have just restored the pan. I would have it as a purely bolt on solution, no body mods required, although the fuel tank may require lifting on spacers. I was about to buy a new Puma beam but I could chop up the old one as a starting point....

Rich

why not get a working design together and outsource its production to Australia 55c ~ $1us Thats a good 40% saving landed in the UK or US? I can have a talk to my machinest to see if he'd be interested.

I like the idea of a double wishbone front suspension and don't want to bust anyones bubble but the suspension design in the picture is not optimal. There is much to designing a front suspension that will work well and for a GL I would want one that would work VERY well. I have just begun learning about suspension design and certainly do not know everything but......double wishbone suspension should have unequal length arms and they must be the correct lengths to give the correct roll center and camber gain, there are some other things to think about but it gets deep quick with things like anti-dive and scrub radius to mention a couple. I think the design pictured would probably ride better than a stock trailing arm but I'm not so sure it would handle much better and that should be the main point (in my opinion).
As I said, I am not a suspension expert, but I believe in learning all I can about things I have an interest in, the same reason I spent almost a year learning about exhaust design before I built my header.
Just my .02, take it or leave it.
ken

Ken,

I agree that the rendered design above is probably not ideal. From my very limited suspension experience ("I had a friend who..." etc...) the wishbones need to be unequal length, and inclined at different angles to get the roll centre in the right place, and get changes in camber as the suspension is loaded, etc. The setup above looks to be equal length and parallel, so there will be no camber change on the wheel as it loads up, i.e just like the standard torsion beam setup.

I have no idea how well my system will work, but it is unequal length wishbones and different inclination angles for the upper & lower wishbones. Whether the rate of change of camber, position of the roll centres is right for a stock-ish weight Bug is anyones guess...

Moog

Keep it coming guys....
every input is welcome.
We have decided to build the first one. So every input that you can make could be integrated.
BTW...

Mark and I already discussed some changes.
Alex

What are you guys gonna use for uprights?

You have to explain the term "uprights" to me.

English is my second language.

Alex

By Uprights I mean the part that ties the wishbones together at the end and mounts the brake etc on

We are going to use the stock disk spindle...if that is what you mean.

Alex

yeh thats what I ment

Have you looked into using the uprights from a porsche 928 that way you can bolt on big brakes at the same time

I already have modified stock spindles for my 993 TT calipers.
If this will get sold as a bolt on kit I think it would be good to use as many stock parts as possible because not everybody will use big Porsche brakes. This way you are able to use CB or Kerscher brakes as well.
At the moment we are still trying to figure out the final design.
My problem is that my caliper brakets are pretty big which will limit the wishbone design.

I will post a new rendering as soon as I get it.

Alex

I had the same concerns as kdanie regarding the design that Mark at Precision Products has worked up. I shared these views with him, but I don't think that is the direction that he wants to go. Simon at Red9 design has also worked up a design that is more along the lines I was thinking. Check out the Shop Talk Forums German Look section under I think Double Wishbone suspension and he has posted a 2d view of his idea there.

Jason

To Amend:

The design I'm trying to pull off involves not having to split the body and pan or scratch any paint, so Alex, there isn't really any time constraint here!

Jason,

Your frame design has to be a two piece then that needs to be bolted together. There is not very much room in the wheel well cut out and between the frame head and body. The other thing is that the wishbones are to far back....too close to the frame head which could lead into the wishbone touching the lower tray under the frame head that extends out at the edge. I am not too sure were the spindle sits in height.....I have to check on my pan.
The best design I have seen so far is the one that Martin "dobergoose" has on his pan although the frame head is gone. I talked to Mark and he will make some changes on his design. If you have no frame work in front of the frame head you can not bolt on the body to the front unless you make some brackets for it.
There are a couple of pics in the Suspension gallery of Martin's setup and a wishbone that Remmele made for his blue racer.
If you want post your design as an attachment.

Alex

Amendments
 

I've been digging around under the car again! Alex, you're correct, it will be at least 2 pieces, maybe 3 for the actual frame the A arms are connected to.

Another point, this set-up will be for maximum handling, so, though for most it will already be the case, this will be for lowered vehicles only. As you've already noticed, unless the splindle is situated higher, the lower arm will be hitting the tray.

To keep VW, the steering rack will probably be Rabbit or Golf, with or without power.

If you want to keep your height stock or higher, then I thing Payne Precision's front end will be the way to go. But I think that design downplays the handling potential of the A arm set up.

Jason

Just to show I'm still thinking about it. Here's a pic of my sketching so far. I might be able to keep the stock steering with a modified drop link to keep things simple. I haven't thought much about the frame, the main problem is to clear the tie rods and that's hard to visualise before the wishbone positions are set.

One thing that is becoming clear is that it will be optimum for a particular ride height. What height are most people running here?

Rich

Spent sometime this weekend looking through some hot rod mags. As you do :)

Rich, i think you're on the right track, nearly all of the aftermarket stuff shows un-equal length arms, with the lower arm holding the shock and the chassis connector holder the upper shock mount.

Cheers
Craig

Rich,

You've noticed that the system has to be height range dependant. I think your idea is great for a stock height application and would be a little more straightforward. What do you have in mind for steering?

Jason

Looking at it I think I may be able to make a new drag link for the steering box which is bent downwards. This would drop it below the level of the upper wishbone. Possibly flipping the orientation of the inner tie rod ball joints. I would prefer to also use a bump steer kit to lower the tie rods but, as Alex mentioned, big calipers would no longer fit. I may also have to lengthen the lower steering arm to pull it back from the coil-over unit which would have the effect of increasing steering rate. Would people want this?
Otherwise, a rack is the other solution but would involve mods to column etc etc.

Why do you think my idea is good for stock height? I still have to determine wishbone locations, probably raising the lower pivot point above the pan, although this would make the frame more complicated unless the pan was cut for clearance. Is this an option people would be happy with?

Rich

That's my point Rich, the way you have mounted the bottom arm under the pan is ideal for stock applications, but if you get really low, you'll be banging the lower arm against the tray under the MC. Unless the arms are short with the mounting points moved farther out, I think there will have to be 2 versions, a lowered one and a stock on. Heck, we can even make a raised one for all those Baja guys!

Jason

Here's a peek at what I'm working on with Simon at Red9 design.

Dos this setup keep the front frame horns and wheel locations (they look like they may sit a little further back than stock)?

Hello-

I _love_ the idea of double wishbone front suspension!

However, before you decide to take deposits or begin fabrication design, you may want to go to the bookstore and purchase some books on suspension design. There is a LOT of math involved in a good suspension design! Realizing that you need unequal length arms is simple compared to the complex geometry involved. There's no rush - spend a week or two reading little bits of the book at a time and understanding what's going on. Good technical books aren't easy to read quickly :-). Then, armed with the new knowledge, go back and attack your design problem. Determine if what you are picturing will give what you want or not.

Remember: if done properly (as the math will show), handling will be greatly increased. If done improperly, you'll end up worse than when you started.

Take care,

Mark has done suspensions before and has a racing background.
He also has computer programs fpr suspension setups that do the math.

There is no need to pre-order. One will be made for me and then you can see if you like it or not and as soon as my car is ready you will get a full report on how it handles.

Alex

could someone give me an average measurment from the bottom of the pan to the ground at the framehorn. please specify if you have lowered spindles or not, with around 205/40 tires would be nice.

and could you e-mail me this info payneprecision@hotmail.com

many thanks....Mark.

For a price perspective:

$1200.00 Total
($300.00) Shocks
=$900.00 Total (without shocks)
($800.00) Apprx. price for standard balljoint front end,
Spindle to spindle, including debatable TWX steering
box.
=$100.00 difference in price.

The cost redeeming side of the VW set up is not needing as expensive shocks as the coil overs. I guess since these front ends do not come with springs (other than the shocks) It s not fair to deduct the $300. This brings the difference to $400. Now you still have to buy shocks for the VW front end, so lets subtract $150 for some Bilsteins and call it a day. Now we are at $250 additional for Alexes front end compared to VW.

Ron

Production A arm Cars
 

Can anyone think of a production car the has A arm front suspension? Must be Metric!
Thanks

Progress
 

I've settled on a Golf II non powered steering rack, and '86+ Porsche 928 spindles, 3 series BMW lower control arms, and very custom upper control arms. All the parts are finding their way here as we speak! I also have a couple of 17" rims coming so I can mock the whole thing up.

Jason


(edited 09/30/2005-- Obviously I had my head in my A$$ at this point, once I got a good look at my M3 lower control arms and the fact that the control arms have to be exactly the right length to go with the steering rack and overall track, this was not a good option at all. JF)