Ethanol in a VW motor
 

Hey folks,

I was curious if anyone knows if you can run E85 ethanol in a stock VW or if there are some modifications that could be made to do so. Out here in middle America we have pretty cheap ethanol supply. I have heard it is around 93 octane? I have also heard that ethanol is pretty big in Brazil. If you guys have any ideas please let me know.

Hey V.
I'm from Brazil. My GL is a sole alcohol burner (we have what is called hidrated alcohol, has a bit of water in it). From what I understand E85 has 15% of gasoline, which should make it pretty good to use it. What I know is for our kind of alcohol, I guess your is a tad less forgiving (because of the little sip of gas in it).

Just for refference, i have a 1914, dual 44, W110 cam, 40X35 heads...bla,bla,bla

Compression is the first difference. My car runs 13:1. If the engine was stock (given the bugs old design) this should be 10,5:1 (modern engines run 12,5). I'm doing a few changes in my engine now (bigger cam) and along with that will go with 14:1. So you get the picture.

Then you need more fuel, consumption is much higher. Carburator needles have to be bigger (my dual Weber 44 use 250 needles) and an electric fuel pump. Idles are 85, mains are 200 and airs are 210. The Etubes have to be richer too. I use F3s.

Timming is different too. I start with 16 and advance it to 32.

Alcohol has less energy in it, so it is ****ty if you don't have the compression bump, there are no advantages. It is awesome for turbo. To give you an idea there are guys running completely stock 1600 (with a gasoline CR) and nasty turbo systems. I know of a specif one that makes 326fwhp on a bone stock motor running 30psi, that without an intercooler. (it is a modern Kombi engine, the ones which stopped production a few months ago).

So, if you build an E85 engine, that's cool, if you convert (carbs only, without CR), there is nothing to gain. If you go turbocharged, then you guys will start understanding what turbos can really do. And all of a sudden a 326 stock 1600 won't sound so crazy....

Best regards,
Marcelo

326 hp out of 1600cc? say what!

how the life on those huh?

sure your not burning rings off or having heads walk off?

We get that a lot VWDMC.

They don't burn rings (how do you do that anyways??) and they will throw the heads out, if built on an old style engine. As you know the aircooled engine was produced in Brazil up until a couple of months ago. Since I don't know when, they have been a little better, and strong enough to withstand 30psi of boost (depending on compressor size) if correctly tuned.

One guy managed the 326 FWHP on a otherwise stock 1600 engine, running only a set of twin 32 throttle bodies with 8 injectors (which we allow it to pass as stock since the engines did come of the line with twin 32 cards in Brazil and later MPFI with a single throttle body, so it is a mixture of both - the extra 4 injectors, well that's just what it take to feed the bastard).

But many guys manage something like 280, 300...

It is funny you ask how is the life on those, but we in general don't seem to build 100.000 mile cars. It is more of a build it, drive for awhile, upgrade it, drive some more... so I don't know how long they will last. Probably won't last an endurance race, but then again it is not an endurance race engine. It will last a few gearboxes, clutches, broken axles, and sets of tires on the street.

The reason I mention these turbo engines is because we have been running the turbo fever ever since 1976 when alcohol came out. We have come a long way on developing these engines.

The problems and fears I hear you guys having today (such as modifying carb seals for blow through turbos, burned this, burned that) where the ones we had in the past and learned to deal with them.

I wish I could help my fellow hot rodders. Turbos are a lot of fun.

My Vw Dud is not turbo though, and that's because in Brazil to be different, you have to run dual carbs on a normally aspirated engine. Everyone runs turboed EFI.
My dayly driver though is a stock Opel Astra with a turbo kit. 300hp on an otherwise stock motor with 10psi....30.000 miles so far, only broken clutches and 2 sets of rubber.

Best regards,
Marcelo

Hey you might be able to get quite a business going if you set up kits for turbo 1600s on ethanal and sell it to the U.S. since we always want more power.

I hope to hear some more developments from you soon

cheers

Hey VWDMC,

Do you want to do that, me and you? I'll send you the kits and you sell them over there. How much money you think a person would be willing to spend on a kit?

What do you think this kit should have, besides the manifold, BOV, WG, and up and down pipes? I mean, do you think it should include the injection, clutch, intercooler....

Let me know.
Regards,
Marcelo

yeah i think a complete kit (with great instructions) would be required. perhaps the U.S. isn't ready to go ethanol completely, but telling the world of your power discoveries would speed things along.

Even better could be a complete engine(Ready to run), trans and clutch that can handle the power without having the axles go walkies :D

i'm not to up to date on the whole ethanol creating process or how to use it to get best results.

Give us a run-down on the ingredent list and specs, and what it could possibly cost.

i'd say you could sell the bits for around $1-2k because that would still be a bargain for 300+hp on cheap fuel or $4k+ for a complete set up for the "lazy" hot rodders

Try throwing this idea out on Thesamba.com and i bet people would bite if you tell them how rather easy the set up would be compared to all the machining, caculating, matching, dialing in that is needed on a big turbo gas motor that makes 300+ horse

or just PM me if you don't want to reveal your secrets just yet

BTW i've always wondered why did brazil go alcohol in the '70's?

VWDMC I'm in the mood to chat!

I'll throw the idea to the friends bulding the kits, I'm not in the business (was in the 90's)...but TheSamba sounds like a good starting point. What I would like to do is spread the news, the knowledge and help you guys avoid the mistakes we made.

Like I said before, we came a long way. The turbo craze started in Brazil in the 80's, got really serious in the 90's, but we have recently mastered its use. Once you realize the fuel consumption needs, then its the higway to pleasure and free power. If the guy with the MASSIVE 3 liter spanks you with his 280hp screamer when you were running 15psi on that lazy wednesday night, you tell your engine builder, retard timming a little, step up 10 on your mains and simply bump the wind to 30psi and voila, you just made 100 and something free horses.

Do they explode? Yeah they do, but that's up to you (what I mean is that there is no black magic in them). Great part of the blowing up is due to lean conditions, and they are due to improper tuning. I've been doing this for the past 17 years and I threw more valvetrains in normally aspirated engines due to stupid driving tha thrown rods due to weak bottom ends in turbo engines. I've had a lot more demage done due to lean condition, but that is part of the past and in any case, they are usually nothing more than a burnt head gasket (watercooled VWs).

Alcohol is awesome, I urge you guys to switch, whenever you have it readily available. The engine stays much cleaner inside, that alone is a great advantage. It is incredibly cooler, I'm mean my bug runs 13:1 CR without an internal cooler only the 72 pass external with no fan, and the car never sees past 90 degrees. And obviously, more CR means more power.

Brazil went to alcohol in the 70s I think because of the great oil dependency we had, with the crisis and enough land to grow sugar cane, it was an obvious solution I guess. In the biggining the cars sucked, they did not have good cold start systems and the CR wasn't bumped up, so they were extremely hard to start (for a normal driver) and fuel consumption was terrible. Once compression was up and they developed automated cold start systems, the sales took off, to the point that in the late 80s, 98% of the new cars ran on alcohol. For some stupid reason the government abandoned the program in the 90s and we had some shortage then. Later when the market opened up, imported cars were solely gas and the factories stopped developing alcohol engine, so you had a surplus of the fuel, which was great for us. I remmenber having a 400hp daily driven Rabbit that cost half to run than my dad's 115hp Passat. Those days are gone though since recently the manufactures started building the flex fuel cars, which run on either fuel.

Regarding the parts and secrets, I'd be glad to list them here, but I don't want to clog your pages so, if it is of anyones interest, let me know.

Regards to all,
Marcelo

Hey, this thread is interesting :)

If we're talking reliability rather than max HP, lets say this engine you're talking about but with maybe 150-180 HP rather than 300? How reliable would you say such a setup would be, if used as a driver/fun road car rather than racing?

dubKustom,

Hello! Yeah its pretty cool heh? Well, like I said before (maybe not here), I fail to understand the reliability problems you guys complain and talk so much about, specially in the T1 motors. There are things that you have to correct in these engines which were things that in a high performance application didn't work, such as lack of oil filter, cooler right in front of 3rd cylinder and so on. We do not build fast engines to last 100.000 miles, that is just not something we worry about, specially because there are other things that happen during the life of the engine that ultimately makes you loose a few horses gradually and you would eventually tear down the engine to fix these things before that period anyways (such as that nasty black build up on the top of the piston which I don't know how you call it, or worn valve guides or pistons that shrunk - have you checked how much a forged piston shrinks after some hard driving and so on). So the engine gets old. Worn out, and it simply doesnot deliver the performance it should.

A properly tuned 300hp 1600 will last a long time, a 180hp one will probably last longer, but it doesn't matter how. I had a daily driven Rabbit with 400+hp for like 50.000, tore it down because it leaked oil everywhere. I replaced the rings (the leaks were due to excessive pressure in the sump due to ring leak down - the car did not use an air filter due to lack of space in this specific set up), replaced the gaskets and seals, and headed to another 50.000 miles, a friend still has the car, going strong after maybe 10 years of driving.

My point being, reliability is not a problem if properly tuned. Keep in mind that turbo engines have low static compression and easy-on-the-parts valvetrain, it is essentially a stock engine off-boost, so it will last a long time, much longer than a wild arse normally aspirated engine, when driven under the conditions you described.

On road racing applications the story is different because of heat build up. We have recently put together a road race Fox (remember the old ones made in Brazil, sold in the US, the ones you hated), the car has a conservative 300hp on 15psi and we are getting spanked by heat. Everything under the hood is melting, started, hoses, wastegates.....but we are learning, so I guess even in this case, once you learned how to cool the whole thing down, it will be ok. We went the whole last season on a STOCK engine (stock pistons and rods) running 270hp with the same boost and more fuel, just to understand how far a set of factory pistons and rods will go.

TO sum it up....careful when people say that this and that CAN"T take this or that....they usually can take a lot more than what people thing, but the problem is that usually there is something wrong elsewhere that prevents the whole thing from working properly. Additionally, people insist on building mega horsepower engines (180 on a bug is mega - factory is what 50?) using factory tolerances, oil pressures and volumes...things like that, those things play a maker role in reliability also....factory tolerances on a 8000rpm engine won't work.

So to answer you question....don't worry about reliability on your application, if tuned properly and a few things observed, it should outlast your paint job, wire harness, and definetely your tires.....

Best regards,
Marcelo

OK, I see your point... I don't know that much about VW engines, still in the process of learning, but what you're saying almost sounds a bit too good to be true :cool:
All the people I've spoken to, including a few drag racers in my club are basically saying that lots of HP in a Type1 engine will make it a lot less reliable. It seems to me (from what all these people tell me) that in making a high performance T1 engine you will either lose reliability or you have to spend a fortune on it, basically building a brand new engine with aftermarket parts... My long-term goal is to have a kustom Bug with a solid, high performance engine to use as a fun street/highway driver. But I don't want to get stuck on the road all the time, so I have considered swapping to a tuned Type 4 engine or an all-out conversion to a newer engine like a Mazda rotary.

I mean, if I could keep the "stock" engine, get good horsepower AND be sure to get home without a hassle, no one would be happier than me :D But until now that has seemed impossible.
Am I talking to the wrong people, like drag racers who will do anything to cut their 1/4 mile times, rather than building usable street engines?

Thanx/Daniel

Hey 1500SBR

i'd like to know more details on the engine hardware for all-out and moderate power (130+/-HP), PM or Email me Ok? :)

well our good buddy Marcelo has made the speech about how to get the power we've heard about, so here it is:


YOu asked for a run in the parts needed, that's a long answer question,
but we'll go in parts, you keep coming back with whatever I fail to
answer.

Keep in mind the following:

We had beetles here up until 1996 and aircooled Buses up until last year
(or this year, I don't care much for the new buses). This means two
things. I don't know if there were any changes, I can't tell you if the
96 brazilian engine is better than a 70 German one. I know it is newer
and that alone is a big difference. So even though both are STOCK
engines, the newer engine will be stronger (it will probably pass
magnaflux tests, while the other may not).

But lets say you are starting with a zero miles engine, completely
stock, these are the mods I feel are necessary:

OIL - External filter, high volume pump, external cooler (72 pass) with
scoop next to the tranny - no need for fan, unless you guys get higher
temperatures that Rio de Janeiro

Cooling - Fan shrould without oil cooler, all tin in good condition and
seals in place - You want the heat outside the engine bay, the engine
cannot recycle heat - A doghouse places the cooler outside the shrould,
but the friggin cooler is still in the bay, when you stop the heat
radiates around the bay and the fan sucks the heat - No open hoods
either. If you decide you need extra cooling in the bay, has to come
from the bottom of the car and from the front of the rear axles- any air
pick ups from the back of the axles to the back of the car has a higher
temperature on a running car.

IGNITION - obviously points won't work, anything electronic. In Brazil
we use electronic or Hal distributors with stock ignition boxes and
coils. MSD systems are not necessary, but you may not have access to a
Hal or factory electronic system and might want to use whatever you have
to eliminate points - Pertronix type of thing, I don't know, never used
it

Fuel delivery - Electric fuel pump that flows at least 1 gallon a minute
will work, must do so at at least 60psi. Pressure dependant fuel
regulator with a line returning to the tank (or before the pump pick up)
- pressure set at idle will be rougly 5psi and it must raise pressure in
the same rate of boost (with 15psi of boost you will then have 20psi of
fuel pressure - you will read this pressure after the regulator and
before the carburator) - If using carbs, you will need big float
needles.

Turbo Kit - there is a more common manifold where the tubes go up and
the turbo sits next to the alternator, don't use that one, there is a CB
Performance one where the turbo sits next to the crank pulley and they
remove the rear tin - don't use that one either - the ticket is a kit
where the turbo sits right above one of the axles, high enough to have
the oil from the turbo returning by gravity only - the reason to chosse
this manifold is to keep heat away from the engine bay - all tubes
should be thermally wrapped. Additionally, the up pipe should route to
the carbs in a T fashion (where it splits for both carbs, rather than a
Y fashion). Y seems better for flow, but in practical terms you may get
more airflow to one of the sides, while using a T, it is harder for this
to happen. Nobody uses an intercooler, but I would not put one together
without it....next to the tranny with a scoop

Turbo size - Depends on the application - exactly like a cam. Use a T2
style for up to 150hp, T3 style with AR .42 for the compressor for up to
300hp. Larger turbos, will only work with bigger engines or 8000rpm
screamers.
The exhaust side shold be a AR.36 or smaller for low hp applications and
AR.48 on the other ones - wheel size, I don't have the spec sheets with
me, can tell you later though if you get serious - regarding TRIM, we
don't have a choice of trim here (we do, but I'm not that sofisticated
and haven't gone into that - it makes a difference, but you are talkging
200rpms up or down and 5hp up or down) - To hell with TRIM.

Carbs - on a 150hp applicationn - Dual 32s. bigger carbs will make more
power, dual 40 or fuel injection better (can't really help you with
tuning the 32, cause I dont use them, can help you with the 40s and 44s)

Ok, basics layd down, now the variables. A stock motor described above
with 32s and a T2 should make in the neighborhood of 130hp with 15psi.
But it will spin past the stock springs capability, so you wanna have a
set of high performance single springs. Otherwise, rods, pistons and all
are safe.

Now when it comes to making more power (remember they make 300 on Fuel
injection, with 4 40mm throtles). The following is a list of things
that will help a lot.

Obviously the size of the throttles. dual Weber 40s will make a huge
difference, and you be able to step to a T3 turbo (more air volume on
the same boost level) without a enourmous amount of lag added. But when
you get there, higher revs are on the way. you need valvetrain upgrade -
pushrods, springs (single or dual if more than 6500), retainers, things
like that. Next would be large valves, 40X35.5, a 3 angle valve job and
mild port work. and next an Engle TCS 10 with the dual springs. The cam
could come before the valves, but then you would have split the case.

Remember, this is using stock rods and crank. You might have a problem
with the flywheel without the 8 dowell, but that will depend on your
driving. First time it comes loose you will have to step to the 8
dowell thingy.

Of course, the stock clutch can't take the weakest of turbo set ups.
Clutch you use whatever you have there. I normally run ceramic discs
with stock pressure plates, they vibrate while taking off a little, but
I get an original pedal feel, as oposed to start having problems because
of the added load on the pedal (mainly the hassle in traffic).

SO to answer you question in one line - 130 hp, all stock, with T2
turbo, single high rev springs on dual 32s (and no points) - More than
that, step to Weber 44s and a T3. To be safe (of the drivers mistakes)
upgraded valvetrain. Still want more, nice set of heads with mild ports
and 40X35.5 valves.

You can drop this at the thread. It will be nice to hear the
IMPOSSIBLE, NO CAN DO, EVERYTHING WILL BE FLYING comments....but unless
there is some type of magnetic field in Brazil that prevents the engines
from flying apart, that's how they work over here....eventually you get
to break something, but then again, the 45hp ones also break. It is not
uncommon to see the people here complain about reliability, but when you
look at their engines (don't even have to take them apart) you realise
the reliability problems come from the fact that they are using old
parts, bad assembled parts or a combination of both. Other thing I
wanted to tell you....we have a racing league here called Speed 1600 for
bugs. They run 14 inch stock rims (from Brasilia and SP2) with radial
tires. Some 5 degress of camber in the front and like 7 in the back,
roll cage and stock motors. You are allowed only to work on the 32s,
increase CR, some port and angle job, valve springs (I think) and the
use of a 4X2 header. The suckers make 110hp. 1600, stock cam, stock
heads, stock everything....they spin to 6000rpm. The only real problem
they have is that they leak so much oil that they have to be the last
category of the day or else the other guys complain about the dirty
track....true story.

Regards,
Marcelo


well there you have it people, so you can see it really isn't that hard but forgetting to beef up a simple parts or not putting the fuel delivery together right will make the motor go kaput

so will anybody here want to try this?

Yep, I'm game to give it a shot!
I'm putting together the bottom end of a 1600 as we speak. its tapped for full flow oil, has a windage tray etc...
I also have a T2 turbo and complete CIS injection system waiting to be chopped up and fitted on.
I'm interested to hear or see (if you have some pics) how you run all your oil lines to and from the cooler and turbocharger?

Cam,

Nice to hear you are up to....if I can help with anything else let me know.

Regarding the lines.
Oil cooler: I use a full flow pump cover: There are two nipples, one to the oil cooler then from the oil cooler to the other nipple. I'm not sure how people do it when running the lines from the case itself. Another option is to use the relocator that goes in the place of the original oil cooler (my car simply has a bypass cover type of thing there)

Turbo: You run a line from the oil pressure sender hole (using something that allows you to use both a nipple for the oil supply for the turbo - steel braided line and have a place to put the oil light switch). Back from the turbo, you can dump it anywhere as long as it is lower than the turbo, since it fall back by gravity (it is important the the line does not allow to form a puddle anywhere - do you know what I mean?) - some people dump it on the place where the original fuel pump used to be or on one of the valve covers....

I don't have pictures, but I hope I helped.....

Regards,
Marcelo

So 1500SBR your saying that we need to keep every thing hot out of the engine compartment and put the turbo in front of the engine, how do you mount that? the header must be tricky, and would you have any issues withe the rear luggage tray and the heat? i'd rather keep the turbo next to the engine where it is easier to get at

VWDMC,

Yeah it is a tricky header, one which I haven't seen made as an actual kit. Here we have a lot of custom exhaust shops and the one I use has developed this system where the turbo sits right above the left axle. There is a little bit of cutting and fitting. To make space for the turbo in that location. I mentioned it is a nicer location because it does keep the heat out of the bay.

I included a few pictures so you guys have an idea.
Regards,
Marcelo

Picture of the trick manifold.....

Let me know what you guys think...

Take care

you guys don't have any issues with the #3 exhaust pipe being so short and all unequal? and where does the external oil cooler go, 'cause usually us americans put it where that turbo is

No issue with the short 3rd cylinder (it is all under pressure anyhow). It does create some difference while you are off boost (theoretically - but unoticeable on lesser than extreme performance applications). If you still feel this is something you would like to fix. You can always re-route the 3rd cylinder tube.

The oil cooler will still fit next to the trasmission (I don't know wxactly how you guys mount it, but there is enough room for a 72 pass) or you can move it to the other side of the car. The header can also be made to mount the turbo on the right side.

Also, I haven't seen one, but I've taken measured and I'm sure you can make it fit. You run the oil cooler on one side and the charge cooler on the other side....

But you didn't tell me what you thought about the headers and all. Cool, not cool, crappy....I think this way to position the turbo is awesome, no comparison to the other methods...

Regards,
Marcelo

I like the idea of the turbo over the gearbox, however I was planning to mount mine behind the rear apron (behind the motor, under the tinware). I have seen a few VW's with this set-up and cant imagine the oil return should be too much of a problem, especially since its so close to the where the case is full flowed that the pressure should be there to stop the oil pooling. Be interested to hear if anyone has had experience mounting the turbo in the position.

yeah i like the mounting, it's cool, but accessing it could be a little harder than a turbo undre the apron, but i guess you would'nt need to do much maintance on it, although i don't mind crawling under the car :)

So i looked up how hard it would be to get/make 180-190 proof fuel, and it would take a $400-500 still and alot of work to constanley make enough fuel, not to mention getting a permit and all that. sso what kinda power do you see possible woth E85 vs. pure alcohol, becuase that would be much easier to get although not cheaper in the long run.

Cam, I don't think you can fit the turbo under the rear tin, without removing it. If the turbo sits too low, you will need a scavenging tank for the oil return line (which has no pressure) and a scavenging pump. For the gravity to take care of the return line, the lowest part turbo has to be mounted above the oil level inside the pump otherwise it smokes under certain situations if not all the time.

VWDMC, I can't give you exact figures since we do not have E85, but from mixing regular Gas and Alcohol, which some people do, the results will probably be the same in terms of power. Less forgiving when it comes to ignition timing and a bit hotter, but nothing too significant. I wasn't suggesting you guys went after pure alcohol of methanol for this use. I was suggesting the use of E85 to begin with. I think it will probably even work better than Brazilian Hidrated alcohol, since water doesn't burn, it simply takes space in the combustion chamber. Gas on the other hand burns hotter than alcohol so a bit combined with alcohol must make a pretty good fuel. Without the hard start and with slight less specific consumption.

Regards,
Marcelo

Wow did this thread ever get hijacked! Yes you can run e-85 in a relatively stock bug engine. Replace all of the fuel lines and clean the tank real good. You will then have to Jet the carb(s) about 33 to 35% richer and reset the floats to accomadate the diference in fuel density. E-85 is about 105 Octaine. The timing needs to be advanced as well. More compression wouldn't hurt if you want to build an engine to use it. The only problem we have here in Texas is that e-85 still cost too much and the 33% loss in MPG doesn't justify the 18% decrease from Super Unleaded.

PjlOval, What do you mean by highjacked? in the beggining we talked about being no advantages to using E85 unless you build a high compression engine for it or it is turbocharged. From my experience 35% richening is too much even for pure alcoohol, so with e85 it is way too rich. THere is also the corrosion issue (it is bad). How much does a gallon of E85 cost? Here a gallon of gasoline is US$4,18 and a gallon of alcoohol is US$2,09. It is not that more compression wouldn't hurt, it is needed. Timming is only advanced if you do not have the compression....a correct alcohol engine requires different timming from a gas engine, not simply more...the curve is different.
Differences sum up as: corrosion on all parts in contact with fuel...tank, pump, lines, and specially the carbs. Different jets, e-tubes, float needles. Different timing. Higher compression ratio. Some manufactures change cam profile (because the car behaves differently and they want to fix that - I'm ot suggesting you have to swap cams, I'm illustrating how different it is). Smaller venturis. No polishing of manifolds and heads or rather a different finish then the one you are used to. cold start system required depending on weather....

Turbo setup.
 

1500SBR, Your turbo setup sounds similar to my setup. I have a kit that a respected Australian VW mechanic setup that mounts the turbo on the passenger (RHD) side of the gearbox. The intercooler sits the other side, and feeds back to a Weber 32/34 DMTT carb setup for blow-through. The turbo gets its oil from the pressure switch via a T, and the return goes back to the passenger side Valve cover. The kit has a distributor that limits advance travel, and it is setup to work with a basically stock motor. Stock heads, stock crank, you just put a rising rate regulator, fuel pump, and bigger Pistons and Barrells and drop compression etc, and it is designed to only rev to 4500 rpm. This setup was driven 600 miles to a run, did a pass of a 14.2 secs with an 1835 setup, and drove the 600 miles back home.

Here is a pic of the headers and the setup as seen in the engine bay.

http://www.matara.net/albums/Turbo/db_engine.jpg

http://www.matara.net/albums/Turbo/IMG_7777.jpg

Interestingly, petrol manufacturers over in Australia, are now blending ethanol into petrol between 10% and 30%.

Good to see that the kit has some proven heritage.

Cheers

Steve

Hey Steve,

Awesome..14s reving 4500, that is really cool. I really like your setup, it is so clean and the single dual throat carb eliminates some of the duals hassles...

I guess ethanol will slowly replace gasoline...and that is a good thing. being forgiving with turbos, I also guess that is the future of internal combustion engines....good for us!

Regards,

Marcelo

Hi guys, regarding cam's post about turbo under the rear tin, cb's got a turbo kit that actually does that. I dont know about the exact install details, but you can check that out, too.

Any updates peoples?

Dubkustom, I sent you a couple of messages but they came back, in any case I put together a list of things I could remember regarding the ethanol conversion. Hope it helps. If I can help in any other way, let me know.

I'm not a chemical engineer, the VWs are mostly a hobby, so I can talk about my experience and along with it I'll tell you a bit of the story so you understand.

In Brazil we have a blend of ethanol which is called hydrated alcohol. I don't know how it compares to E85 in terms of corrosion potential. Ours is probably more corrosive since it has water added to it.

It started in Brazil around the mid seventies. At first the cars were troublesome and worst in every way. Slower, worse mileage and so forth. Corrosion was also a problem.

They got better along the way.

So, regarding corrosion. It attacks every part that is in contact with it, but it is really serious in the carbs. Meaning that if you leave everything alone (and parts of it, there isn’t much you can do, like the gas tank for instance), except for the carbs, you should be fine for a long time. All the Brazilian cars started having corrosion protected fuel systems around the 90s, even the gasoline fed cars.

There were factory alcohol beetles, but I could not supply you a list of alcohol specific parts, except for which I remember, the carbs were specific, the pistons and the heads (for compression ratio reasons).

My car is converted and the following is a what I know about using hydrated alcohol to run the cars (it applies to everyone)

Gas tank: There isn’t anything you can do with the factory tank. If the tank is in top condition, corrosion will show its face after many, many years. It is not a problem though. Later the cars started using plastic tanks. The beetle never had a factory plastic tank but there are some companies making them today. My car does not have one.

Lines and connections: Regular rubber hoses and copper fittings. Since there is less oxygen in contact with them (when the alcohol dries, which it never happens in the lines), corrosion and oxidation does not take place.

Fuel pump: It has to be nickel plated (factory ones were like that)…or some other sort of corrosion resistant plating. However if they are not like that, they will show signs of corrosion after some time, you would be able to run a normal pump for a long time. An option is to use a modern EFI pump with a fuel regulator. My car has an EFI pump from a Opel Kadett. They last a long time if the cars is in constant use (constant in the context of the subject is at least 3 times a week)

Carbs: Likewise nickel plated. It will work without plating if you drive constantly. Allowing it to sit will produce a gel in the carbs that clogs up everything. Eventually it will fall victim of corrosion itself. My carbs are nickel plated. Simply took them completely apart and had them plated at a local chemical shop. The brass and copper parts are not plated, like the throttle plates, needles, jets and so forth. Just the casting.

SO in other words, for a daily (I mean daily) driver, if you re-jet they run, and eventually you will see corrosion after a couple or years depending on the condition of things. If you do not drive it as often as 3 times a week, you will see constant clogged carbs. If you nickel plate the carbs, you will see years of trouble free use as long as you drive at least once a week or so. Eventually other things will corrode, like the pump.

Modifications to the rest: The engine needs a higher compression ratio to fully use the potential of alcohol. Ranging from 10.5 to 1 on a factory 1600 beetle to 14.5 to 1 on my engine for example. What determines that is basically how much cam you have in the engine. Consider 10 for a factory cam and 14 for the wildest cams currently available. I run a 313 degree Engle.

It needs a different timing curve. There is less initial advance and less final and the range is a bit narrower. There is some modification needed to adjust how much advance the distributor will have. Timing is dependant on what you run on the rest of the engine, cam, CR, size of the carbs, how rich or lean you like to run the car. My car runs 14 initial and 32 final, if it ran on gas (and had a considerably lower CR – like 9,5 or 10 max) it would probably see something like 16/40. Rule of thumb is to watch head temp and knock. You might want to play with it a little.

And finally, it needs more fuel. Roughly 30% more. It is good (depending on engine performance it is essential) to step up to bigger float needles. Factory being 150 you would need at least a 220 or bigger. I run 300s on my Weber 44s. And a fuel pressure of 0.4 bar. A factory pump won’t provide that much. So the EFI pump is needed on hotter applications.

Iddles are bigger and main jets as well along with less air correction.
The emulsion tubes are also different, as well as the venturis. Original Weber 44s comes with 36mm venturis. I run 34 venturis. The smaller the easier the car will be to tune, the larger the more power (up to a certain level) you will make if the rest is right. There is very little change in my car while running 36 venturis, but it does make more power and loses some drivability.

Emulsion tubes are richer, usually simply by being of smaller diameter and allowing more space and therefore more way for fuel. I use F3 in my Webers instead of the original F11. They are identical, except a few mms skinnier on the outside (maybe two, I cannot remember right now)

Just to give you a ball park: I run 90 idles, 170 fuel, 170 air. If it was gas, it would be 60 idles, 140 fuel, 200 air. Something like that. Since air and mains have interference on band, from 3000rpm up to 5500 is mains and from that on is air (and up to 2500/3000 is idle), it is really a matter of what the engine has in terms of equipment. My advice is increase idle and mains by 30% and start by running the engine only up to 2500rpms, get the idles roughly correct (allow longer time for the engine to warm up though), then step up the revs, running from 2500 to 5000. add and subtract in increments of 5. Then use the whole band and play with air. It has to run flawlessly, if it does’nt, it is not done.

My setup allows for a slightly rich idle and not so rich top band. I think this provides crisp response and yet is lean enough to wind up to 7300rpms. If I run richer in the whole band with alcohol, like a gasoline engine would allow, it doesn’t seem to like the revs that much. Alcohol doesn’t like rich that much.

Oh, last thing, spark plugs, should be colder. While a gasoline would use NGK EGV 5 or 6 (depending on original or hopped up), you can run EGV 7, 8 or even 9 (10 also) on an alcohol engine. I run 7. No change in running colder than that. If it was a turbo application, the colder the better.

One more, filters should be plastic or stainless steel, not the regular metal ones (corrosion again). Generally where you can opt for plastic or rubber or stainless steel, go for it.

I hope this covers most of it. Please feel free to contact me at any time regarding this and other matters.

Enjoy!
Regards, Marcelo

Hi again Marcelo, its the user formerly known as dubKustom :)

I don't know what happened with the e-mail, but thank you very much for the extensive info!

I have been away from the forum for a while, me and some friends have started a little project called Frankenstyle. It is basically a small club promoting kustom kulture (Rat Fink-style etc) , cool cars and bikes, tattoos, pinstriping, and specifically: ethanol engines. We have started a humble beginning with our webpage www.frankenstyle.se (mostly swedish though) with project pics and stuff we like. Feel free to check it out and say something in the guestbook! :cool:
Your info comes perfectly timed, since I am just about to get the car on the ground again with a narrowed beam, ready for the next step, ethanol conversion. We also have a Volvo Amazon -66 and a 1200 Harley Chopper waiting for ethanol.
We want to pick the best of both worlds: old vehicles and a modern, reasonably green, fuel! :)

Best Regards, Daniel a k a Doktor Frankenstyle, formerly known as dubKustom