4 or 5-speed? And wich one??
 

I am busy building my beetle project. My goal is to mount a type 4 2400cc engine with 200 PK. I don't know wich is the best solution for the transmission... Should I stay with a 4-speed gearbow or mount a 5-speed gearbox. I'd prefer to mount a 5-speed one butt wich one? One from a porsche 911 or 914 or a vw 4-speed one converted to a 5-speed box.

Friendly regards,

Tom

I am wondering the same. would it be best to use a 915 or a 901 or ?

I asked this question during my initial investigation. Because of the torque power band of a Type IV engine, I was talked out of wanting a 5-speed. The amount of money spent to make a 5-speed work (fitment and strength), would be better served by installing a limited slip differential into a 4-speed. On top of that, one would shift one extra time without utilizing the power curve--in other words, a 5-speed would be inefficient.

If memory serves me correctly, a 914 tranny would yield one forward gear and five reverse gears.

At this point, I'm leaning towards a 2270 and a 4-speed from R.A.T. when the time comes.

glenn from the samba told me this

"Just to let you know the early 930 Turbos had a 4 speed because the 5 speed couldn't handle the horsepower. The 1978 930 Turbo had 280hp.

No experience with a Porsche tranny, but I got a Berg 5 and it handles the 180hp in my car.

If you want heavy duty.. go with a Bus tranny, but they're only 4 speeds"

4 or 5 speed
 

Hi,

what I read here is (sorry to say this) near to nonsens.

1. a 901 or a 914 is nearly the same. The main difference is the direction it turns out. You can change the direction by flipping the ring gear. So it´s an old tale that you´re running 5 speed reverse gears with a 914 tranny. 914 has longer gear ratio than 901-gearboxes, but stand the same torque. They have the same housing and the same bearings, etc. The only gearbox housing that´s different is the old 901 before 68, which is aluminium cast and not magnesium.

2. The 901 and 914 transmissions easily stand an engine with 2.4 litre. I have a lot of customers who drive good 2.7 engines and have a few with 2.9 litres also. 250 Nm of torque plus 10 % is no problem at all. And believe in me. The German Look Scene here in Germany is bringing out very good type 4 engines.

3. What a nonsens to say that a 5-speed is more inefficient than a 4-speed. Who is today still building cars with 4 speeds? And why do the companies spend more money for 5 or 6 speed gearboxes, if they could handle more efficiency with a 4-speed?
Everyone that already drove a 5-speed in a bug would never change back to a 4-speed again.

4. What is the problem, that people try to give these Porsche trannies a bad name? They were driven over years in very good, fast and strong cars and I can tell you out of my experience that they are much better than each changed 4 speed gearbox at all


Martin Bott Bug @ 5-Speed

www.bugat5speed.de

I think you need to look at a broader definition of "efficiency". On the whole it is cheaper to install a modified T1 4 speed than a 901/914 5 speed for the following reasons:

- The t-1 is a bolt in. 901-914's require slight body mods, fabrication of front mounts and linkage, and, in the case of a 914, replacement of the nosecone and hockey stick and flipping the differential

- Porsche parts are initially more expensive, and are rarer on this side of the pond.

Also, the 901 shift pattern is unfamiliar to most americans, and most of the ones who have tried it don't like it (I do like it, however). To get an "Ameriacn" shift pattern, one must go to a 915, which has the above problems in spades.

Personally, I am looking for a 901 since I like the shift pattern. One of the ways to get better acceptance of the 901/914 swap over here would be a bolt-in solution to the mount and linkage problem that didn't cost an arm and a leg.

R2.0

I would prefer Jake or someone similar with knowledge jumping in on this since they were the experts I was paraphrasing and subsequently called nonsense.

I'm glad R2.0 jumped in.

My understanding on the efficiency part was a five-speed doesn't fully take advantage of the torque curve a Type IV (presumably Jake's Type IV's). If a driver is shifting more often, that's less efficient.

A recent Wall Street Journal article reported on the "Transmission Wars" where today's manufacturers are experimenting with six, seven, and even eight speeds. Basically, two main reasons were sited.

The article quotes many of the manufacturers view this war as being tantamount to the cubic inch displacement wars of the muscle car era. In other words, it is to some degree marketing one-ups-manship.

The other and more practical reason is the necessity to have more gears for fuel efficiency -- which is not what I meant by efficiency.

The fifth gear -- wherever it is placed in the H-pattern -- forces one of two things in the 30-plus year old cars we are driving. (Remember, today's manufacturers build their cars from scratch; not retrofit something different into something which already exists.) It either forces there to be thinner (weaker) parts such that the extra gear won't increase the size of the transmission, or it forces other fabrications (outlined beautifully by R2.0) to become necessary.

Given the extra cost versus extra return of the five-speed renders this into being a personal choice. To say one choice versus another is nonsense is nonsense.

(By the way, I'm still looking for the post which warrants the defense of the German Look scene in Germany. I hope this wasn't meant to imply there is only one valid opinion.)

a 5 speed or a 4 speed are not going to be able to handle horsepower
any differently then each other. thats a load :rolleyes:

the strength of the tranny has more to do with the tranny case,
the differential, the ring and pinion and all the other internal pieces
inside. For instance... I 3.88 R&P is going to be stronger then a 4.12
or 4.37 VW R&P. A Super Beetle Mainshaft is stronger then regular
beetle Mainshafts. Aftermarket gears are going to be stronger then
stock gears...

The reason one would choose a 5 speed over a 4 speed it to be at the
right RPM range thru every gear, plus have a 5th gear for overdrive. The main
downside to having a 4 speed is that you have to space all 4 gears very
far apart so that you can attain high speeds. This means you will be in each
gear for a longer period of time then a properly geared 5 speed which
will equate to a less then efficient situation do to the fact that you are
not really staying in the proper RPM ranges with the 4 speed equating to
slower 0-60 times, 1/4 mile times and accerlation times.

I have owned a 914 with a 1.7 Type 5 and 901 5 speed and let me tell you
that it is an excellent tranny for a Type 4. Once you get used to the shift
pattern, it is a very fun car to drive. One word of caution, the 901 is not
a drag racing tranny. It is setup for track racing and autocross do to the
dogleg pattern.

You can NOT launch a 901/914 trans. off the line very hard or it WILL break. 1st gear on a 901 is in the nose cone (supported on 1 end with a bearing and the other end is supported by a bushing in the nose cone. 2nd-5th are in the main case (supported on both ends of the shaft with bearings). You can give it all the hell you want to after you are rolling or in 2nd gear. Just dont hole shot it. The 915 has 1st-4th in the main case and 5th in the nose cone. The 930 didn't realy need a 5 speed as it had plenty of power to get thru the gears. After the G50 was introduced it was put in the turo cars and faired very well.

4 or 5 speed?
 

The 901 /914 gearbox is no tranny for the quarter, cause the 1st gear is too short and the shift pattern is normally not that what you expect (or expected in the past, as I can shift my 914 quicker as a 915, due to my new shifter).

Think that you guys didn´t read my info about my conversion parts. It´s already a long time ago that lots of modifications were necessary to be made to put a 914 or 901 into a Bug. Had these problems about 12-15 years ago and then started to build these conversion parts that allow a easy installation into Beetles (have a look at ULTRAVW, issue March 2005 for example, or VW Speed 11/2005, or VWTech, issue 18, or visit my site).

What are we talking about when you talk of torque and too much torque for a gearbox. I do agree, that if you work with nearly 300 Nm or more than 300 Nm and drive on the strip then it doesn´t make sense to drive a 901 or 914 tranny. But which type 4 (without turbo) that you want to build or buy (for money that one can affort) has more than 270/280 Nm?

But if it is really so, that you have more torque, then I can also healp you with the same conversion for the 915 tranny.
But be sure. We mainly use them for very strong type 4 with at least 2.7 litres (better 2.9 litres) and Turbo-engines (for example Subaru with 280 PS and 340 Nm).
If you don´t like the shift pattern I do accept, but all the other arguments can not really be accepted by me.

It´s a pitty that I can not let you test my car, or a customer´s car. Then I think most of you would change their minds.

Don´t want to make trouble. Hope that my English does not give the impression that I want to.

Cheers Martin

When I did my 914 trans swap into my beetle, it was very straight forward after doing a TON of research.

If you are using a T4 engine, why not use the gearbox that was meant to go with that engine ? Making a front mount is no big deal and the shift rod is a peice of cake if you use 2 U-joints and a piece if steel tubing. Use a Scat Dragfast shifter and you are laughing.

The gear pattern is OK ... I rarely use first gear in my beetle anyways ... I've got enough torque to start off in second ... and only use first to play with the Ricers at the lights.

I got my nosecone/hockey stick for cheap and the gearbox was reasonably priced.

Sandeep

I'm doing the exact same tranny swap as Sandeep, a '67 Al 911/901 with 914 gears, and I'll be running a stock 2.0L with the same shifter and two u-joints. I don't know how it will work in my 1302 but I have a feeling it will be a good setup since my 914 has a excellent gear ratio for what I want to do with the car. I have driven a bug for most of my life and having a 5 speed type IV is a vast improvement! Like Sandeep said research, research, then some more research!

Nick

I will be doing the same coversion (when I get some free time). I have a 66 911 901 with 914 gearing/shifter and all the new stuff to rebuild it. I was just stating that it will not take drag style hole shots. I have known a few folks that had Berg 5's and had problems with them.

Just go with a G-50 :laugh: ...

If you are worried about not having a strong enough tranny, the 5 speed from the 964 C-2 handles 600 pound feet of torque and the 6 speed from the 993 S handles 800 pound feet in a 3200 lbs car!

I think 540 hp and the 6 speed will be sufficient for road racing (wait for it, Wait FOR IT)

LUDICRIS SPEED, GO!

4 or 5 speed
 

Already thought that nobody over there has already made experience (good ones) with Porsche gearboxes. I´m happy to read, that some have already done the conversions and are satisfied with what they are driving now.
Don´t want to missuse the Forum for adverts, but would be happy to introduce my conversions to the US-market. Am searching for somebody (one person) who is interested in doing a conversion of a 914 gearbox with my parts. Would be good if he informed in this or other forums about the status of his work and give some info about it (pitures,info,comments,..).
Would supply the conversion at a price reduced by German VAT and besides would give a discount of 30 % on the normal price. The conversion kit (nose cone short, traverse aluminium cast, axle flanges, mounting plate clutch cable, clutch lever connector, 5 speed shifter Bug @ 5-Speed) would normally cost 1.078 Euro incl. German VAT. The one who will do the testing will get it for 640 Euro plus cost of freight. That´s about 750 USD plus freight.
Want to show you how easy the conversion is, how good it works and how good a car is running with such a Porsche gearbox.
The one who does the conversion should be a little firm to trannies, as he has to change the nose cone and flip the gear ring (if it is a 914).
Hope that you do not mind me making this posting in this forum. Don´t see another way to give you more info about this matter.
Please come back to my mail-address if you are interested (info@bugat5speed.de). See details of my products on www.bugat5speed.de, or try to get the above mentioned issues from the magazines.
Cheers Martin