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70Turbobug October 19th 2009 04:33

70Turbobugīs 2 liter turbo
 
5 Attachment(s)
Hi everybody,

Iīd like to share my turbo project here aswell.Of course itīs a german looker!

Here are the engine specs:
94x71 - stock crank and stock cylinders - for now.
webcam 86a - out of the box with the 108° LC
straight cut cam gears
Jake Raby parkerized lifters
Cromoly pushrods
CR 8:1
stock CU Bus pistons
oil squirters for the pistons
stock rods balanced with Raceware bolts
cryoed and coated KS main bearings and cam bearings.
Six 13H7 Remmele through bolts
Raceware headstuds
1.7 heads ported 41x35 valves exh.valves are sodium filled,Remmele Dual springs
Autocraft 2 stage dry sump pump
200mm 3.9kg flywheel - clutch TBD either Remmele (Sachs) dual disc or KEP dual disc.
Remmele CF fanhousing 10 blade 911 fan
four 45mm Throttlebodies from a BMW 1150GS Motorcycle - all cable operated,no linkage
4 550cc(@3 bar) siemens/Bosch Injectors
Bosch LSU 4.2 wideband lambda
Bosch narrowband lambda
MFT EGT sensor
Bosch IAT sensor
Bosch COP igntion modules
Ebel-Tec ECU w/boost control
Walbro inline pump
GT3071R .63 A/R turbine .50 A/R compressor
Tial 38mm WG
Greddy Blow off
liquid-Air intercooler

The car:
ī84 mex body on a ī70 automatic pan
944 turbo aluminum trailing arms
Remmele uni-ball coil over rear suspension
4 piston boxster calipers + discs rear,911 carrera 4 piston calipers and discs in front
Remmele uni-ball coil over suspension in front
Heigo aluminum rollcage
091 gearbox
944 turbo axles and cv joints
17" cup 1 wheels 205/40/17 + 245/40/17

here are some pics,more to follow

70Turbobug October 19th 2009 04:45

4 Attachment(s)
Here are a few more:
Iīll take some mor pictures as I go along.These pics are a little old.

evilC October 19th 2009 08:01

Hi 70Turbobug and welcome.

That spec has the makings of a very quick motor.

I note you are going with a Uniball rear suspension and coilover. Why are you getting rid of the torsion bars, are you intending to race the machine? If you do get rid of the torsion bars then you will certainly need a Kafer Cup Brace - 5 bar type to brace up the rear and accept all the suspension loads you are going to put through the top mount.
I see you are going to use an alloy rollcage that will preclude the car being used in most forms of motorsport. It would be better to fit a chrome moly one welded in situ.
Its a shame you are not using the McPherson strut front end to make best use of what is a very high spec.

Clive

Wally October 19th 2009 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by 70Turbobug (Post 71945)
CR 8:1
stock CU Bus pistons

Hi Mark,

I knew most of it already, but can't still figure out why you are going to use stock cast pistons in an engine with otherwise such hi-spec and hi-cost components?
You can just easily use a $200,- set of Mahle type 1 pistons, which are sort-of forged and very light weight too. They are twice as good and cost near nothing wrt this project.
and don't give me crap about the 'compression ratio' with the flat tops :D :lmao:

Greets,
Wally

Sandeep October 19th 2009 11:08

Mark,

What is the 3rd pic in your first set of pictures of ? I see 5 ports in the box, is this to equalize the MAP signal from the TB's ?

I noticed the Remmele front uniball suspension setup ... do you have a pic of that ?

Thanks

Sandeep

gonebuggy October 19th 2009 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandeep (Post 71953)
Mark,

What is the 3rd pic in your first set of pictures of ? I see 5 ports in the box, is this to equalize the MAP signal from the TB's ?

I noticed the Remmele front uniball suspension setup ... do you have a pic of that ?

Thanks

Sandeep

On the TB's it looks like each throttle is independent (butterflies don't share a common shaft) My guess is it's one hell of a throttle cable splitter! Nice linear bearings on it as well.

Alex

70Turbobug October 20th 2009 04:24

Thanks guys!

Quote:

On the TB's it looks like each throttle is independent (butterflies don't share a common shaft) My guess is it's one hell of a throttle cable splitter! Nice linear bearings on it as well.
Exactly! The 3rd pic is the junction box" where the 4 cables from the TBīs come together.The slide in the middle has ballbearings and slides on a shaft.I still need to get a CB Plate and housing.A friend of mine offered to make me housings from carbon fiber,but Iīm not sure if I can get them to seal properly i.e. not be able to put much clamp pressure at the junctions.

Quote:

Hi 70Turbobug and welcome.

That spec has the makings of a very quick motor.

I note you are going with a Uniball rear suspension and coilover. Why are you getting rid of the torsion bars, are you intending to race the machine?
Thanks! Occasionally I will race it. You are right about the brace.I will have one made out of steel.I had a CSP aluminum brace and I believe they are too soft.Not because itīs aluminum,but because it is cheap aluminum.The torsion bars will not be used at all and are not installed.This allows the suspension to move more freely and independantly.

Quote:

You can just easily use a $200,- set of Mahle type 1 pistons, which are sort-of forged and very light weight too. They are twice as good and cost near nothing wrt this project.
and don't give me crap about the 'compression ratio' with the flat tops
Hi Wally! Well itīs hard to argue against that I guess and you are more than likely right. I had my eye on a set of Wisecoīs from JayCee advertised on VW parts unlimited for 350 Dollars.Using the stock pistons may cause a bit of misunderstanding but let me explain why I chose this way.The main enemy is temperature and rpm.A cast piston doesnīt trap the the heat as much as a forged piston.A forged piston is better for high rpm due to the denser material.I will be using piston oil squirters and will be running on E85 only and I have an efficient turbo and Intercooler.Iīm optimistic that it will work out fine.Armin Klein also runs stock pistons in his 2 Liter turbos with great success on pump gas and blasting around the A1 ring at 1.8 bar all day (had a hole in his WG senseline) and the temps didnīt move away from normal values.Itīs a risk I agree,but Iīm not going to be revving that high eventhough the specs suggest it.

Quote:

I noticed the Remmele front uniball suspension setup ... do you have a pic of that ?
Hi Sandeep! I donīt have the suspension put together yet.My Beam is getting powder coated.I will take some pics of the parts this week.

70Turbobug October 20th 2009 05:07

1 Attachment(s)
Here is a pic of the coil on plug ignition modules I will be using.They put out 100 mJ.Here is some more info on them:
http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/conte.../html/2847.htm

Wally October 20th 2009 07:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by 70Turbobug (Post 71966)
The main enemy is temperature and rpm.A cast piston doesnīt trap the the heat as much as a forged piston..

I disagree humbly on both accounts though..
You main enemy in a turbo engine is knock. Period.
You really don't have the heads/headflow to worry about rpm.. (sorry)

The heat retention/conductivity differences of cast and forged alu is really futile in engine operation circumstances.

Knock is your enemy and you WILL encouter it sometime during tuning.
Then you have either forged ring lands or cast ring lands...
Thats my main point ;)

evilC October 20th 2009 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by 70Turbobug (Post 71966)
Thanks guys!
...................
Thanks! Occasionally I will race it. You are right about the brace.I will have one made out of steel.I had a CSP aluminum brace and I believe they are too soft.Not because itīs aluminum,but because it is cheap aluminum.The torsion bars will not be used at all and are not installed.This allows the suspension to move more freely and independantly.


...............

I don't agree about the suspension moving more freely. The only advantage to using the uniball set up is the adjustability for a race set up where various springs can be substituted. The torsion bars do allow the loads to be rgidly and efficiently transferred into the heart of the chassis whereas the Cup brace, although fully triangulated, still allows some flex. If this is primarily a road car then the torsion bar set up supplemented with helper springs on coil overs will give you the adjustability you need for the occasional foray onto the track. With this system the light weight alloy cup brace will be more than sufficient to control any residual loads and stiffen the frame horns.

Porsche ran their '70s 934s and 935s with uniball/coilovers not because the torsion bars were deficient but because it saved weight and it gave them a greater selection of spring rates. Neither of those reasons would apply to your bug.

Clive

Humble October 20th 2009 14:50

Sounds like you'll have a hell of a motor when it comes together got any plans for the poor 091?

On the piston issue it doesn't make sense cost wise to use a cast piston. Even if you have already built the motor and gone through break in I would still strip it and get forged pistons. Those cheap cast pistons will cost you a fortune when they go, not if, when. It could be just a ring land (new piston and barrel maybe some head work), or maybe the piston crown goes (time for a new head, rod, maybe crank, cam, lifters, possible fire damage). The point is $200 now could save you thousands down the road.

I would also stay away from the wiesco pistons for a turbo motor. Even though they are forged the upper ring land is very thin and doesn't hold up the detonation under boost.

70Turbobug October 21st 2009 03:45

All the points you guys have made are correct and Iīm not arguing against them per say.There are some people that donīt like the Remmele set up - which is fine.To me,itīs a great set up and it does have a few flaws.If I were to improve the suspension I would build a double wishbone suspension instead.That of course is quite a task and to get it street legal here in germany would cost dearly.The bug will primarily be driven on the street,once in a great while on the track.The Remmele set up has itīs weeknesses of course as does any suspension set up.Whether the loads are transfered into the chassis better than the tosion bars,I canīt really say.But it makes a world of difference compared the usual Koni and adjustable beam set up.The car acts completely different and to me, seems more stable especially in fast and bumpy corners.Another reason is the adjustability as mentioned.

Back to the cast pistons: Yes,you all are right! One big reason for knock is high piston crown temperature and chamber temperature,correct? A cast piston will have less temperature overall.Interestingly Corky Bell explains in his "Maximum Boost" Book the advantages of a cast piston vs. a forged piston.Of course there comes a point where the forged piston is needed due to itīs higher density.I may have to switch to forged pistons for that matter.I would like to keep the 24mm wrist pin because the rods are finished.

evilC October 21st 2009 09:26

[QUOTE=70Turbobug;71995]All the points you guys have made are correct and Iīm not arguing against them per say.There are some people that donīt like the Remmele set up - which is fine.To me,itīs a great set up and it does have a few flaws.If I were to improve the suspension I would build a double wishbone suspension instead.That of course is quite a task and to get it street legal here in germany would cost dearly.The bug will primarily be driven on the street,once in a great while on the track.The Remmele set up has itīs weeknesses of course as does any suspension set up.Whether the loads are transfered into the chassis better than the tosion bars,I canīt really say.But it makes a world of difference compared the usual Koni and adjustable beam set up.The car acts completely different and to me, seems more stable especially in fast and bumpy corners.Another reason is the adjustability as mentioned.

.....................QUOTE]

We do have advantages in Britain regarding building specials but I was not suggesting a double wishbone unit. In fact, I was suggesting that for the rear you could make life simpler by retaining the torsion bars and adding the coilover to increase the overall wheel rate. I suspect that the reason the Remmelle coilover you have tried works well is that the wheel rate has been increase measurably over stock. I note that Remmelle's rear coilovers are 90kg/cm or 120kg/cm, which is some 50+% over stock. You could achieve that sort of increase by retaining the torsion bars and adding lighter weight coil overs. Whilst Konis have a good reputation I would recommend Bilstein for a performance application and adding a 50lb/inch (9kg/cm) helper + 150ish lb/inch (27kg/cm) main spring. The damper needs to reflect the frequency of the whole spring rate so a notional equivalent would have to be calculated.

Clive

70Turbobug October 22nd 2009 04:19

Ahh now I understand what you are saying.The coil overs I have from Remmele for the rear are IIRC the 2nd generation ones that are made from Bilstein for Remmele.The front unit is the 1st generation model made from Koni for Remmele.The current model suspension is self produced.The good thing with the rear suspension I have is that I am not limited to the springs that are delivered with it.I can choose from various manufactuerers such as KW or other Bilstein springs.I admit you are the first person I have heard to say there is a better option/improvement to the Remmele coil overs using them with torsion bars.They were designed to eliminate the torsion bars.I have heard many pros and cons for the front uni-ball set up.Not everyone likes it.I will see how the car reacts without the torsion bars first.Thanks for the tip!

NO_H2O October 22nd 2009 09:37

Sounds like you have a great project going. I have been thinking of building a turbo engine much like yours down the road (need to finish y 2.4L N/A first) I was thinking of the Web 119 cam. What made you pick the 86A?

evilC October 24th 2009 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by 70Turbobug (Post 72016)
Ahh now I understand what you are saying.The coil overs I have from Remmele for the rear are IIRC the 2nd generation ones that are made from Bilstein for Remmele.The front unit is the 1st generation model made from Koni for Remmele.The current model suspension is self produced.The good thing with the rear suspension I have is that I am not limited to the springs that are delivered with it.I can choose from various manufactuerers such as KW or other Bilstein springs.I admit you are the first person I have heard to say there is a better option/improvement to the Remmele coil overs using them with torsion bars.They were designed to eliminate the torsion bars.I have heard many pros and cons for the front uni-ball set up.Not everyone likes it.I will see how the car reacts without the torsion bars first.Thanks for the tip!

A further consideration that should be noted on the uniball set up on the rear is that you will transmit road noise staight into the chassis that might be a little wearing on the senses in a car primarily for the road. From the tyres there will be nothing to moderate the NVH (noise, vibration and harshness) that will be generated by the tyre since all the contacts are now solid metal. At least with torsion bars you will have rubber or more likely polyurethane bushings of various selectable hardnesses to damp out those vibes.

Rest assured, I am not judging what you are doing I'm just trying to expose the bigger picture. Ultimately, the choice must be yours and you ought to have chosen your solution based upon your criteria but with as much information as you can obtain.

Good luck with the build and keep us posted.

Clive

70Turbobug October 24th 2009 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by NO_H2O (Post 72021)
Sounds like you have a great project going. I have been thinking of building a turbo engine much like yours down the road (need to finish y 2.4L N/A first) I was thinking of the Web 119 cam. What made you pick the 86A?

I wanted a cam slightly more agressive than the 119 without losing idle quality.Iīm hoping it will be a bit more snappy and faster on spool up.My original choice was the 163 but the 86a runs much smoother and I believe it is a better cam for a 2 liter.If I was to build a 2.4 turbo I would go with a 163 on a 110LC.

Thanks Clive for the info! I donīt mind a car that is a bit harsh.Itīs a car made for for fun so some comprimises have to be made.My main focus is stability,safety and driveability.Iīll sacrifice some comfort in exchange.I got to drive a Lotus Elise this summer and the carīs handling really impressed me.So easy and precise and stable.Itīs probably not possible, but f I can get near that kind of handling Iīll be happy.

70Turbobug November 20th 2009 12:14

3 Attachment(s)
A little update on the 2 liter turbo project.Iīm back from vacation and picked up my parts from Remmele.

The heads are also finsished but I have sold them.Instead Remmele is going to do me up a set of CU heads.Iīve decided to go with the CU heads for a couple of reasons.First - more flow,more meat in the chamber and ports along with larger ports.I will be using 45x39 valves and dual springs 130Kg.The exhaust valves will be Mercedes 7mm stem sodium filled.The intake valve is a Remmele valve.Another reason is thereīs more surface to seal for the header in the square port than the oval port.
I will more than likely use the BAS stainless header like Wally.Yes - I am a copy cat in this case.What convinced me is that Wally is now using a GT3076 Turbo and it fits in the same location as the old turbo which was considerably smaller.But Wallyīpersistance and 350HP donīt have anything to do with it :D:lmao:

The crank and rods are also here - but no need to show that since they are completely stock - just well balanced.
3.5 kg Flywheel - including surface rust...I need to clean it up :o

Wally November 20th 2009 13:34

Good looking parts Mark!

Quote:

Originally Posted by 70Turbobug (Post 72419)
I will more than likely use the BAS stainless header like Wally....

Thats quite a change in thought Mark! I can remember you critising my BAS header choice wrt strength and diameter...:rolleyes: ;)
And I copied it from Sandeep you know.
Well, better well copied than ill made :)

Sandeep November 20th 2009 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally (Post 72420)
And I copied it from Sandeep you know.

My bug may be sporting a ducktail with air-air intercooler spring 2010 :screwy: . I'm pretty sure that 350 HP / GT3076R had nothing to do with it ...:nervous:

Sandeep

Wally November 20th 2009 17:36

Right on Sandeep!

I'll trade ya :D
I'am all fired up to up the stakes some more :cool:

70Turbobug November 21st 2009 08:23

Thanks Wally! I will be sending the heads off next week sometime,they will basically be the version 5 heads that Remmele offers only with sodium filled exhaust valves.If your header hasnīt cracked or any other issues by now,it wonīt in the future either.So 1:0 for you ;)

Armin has also upgraded to a 2.2 liter! Although with a 78mm Demello crank and a Garrett 2871 journal bearing turbo.He made 2 new videos also: this one is with the K26/K27 turbo:http://www.myvideo.de/watch/6952429/...g_Classic_2009 and this one is with the 2871 turbo: http://www.myvideo.de/watch/6952465/...zburgring_2009.

Wally November 21st 2009 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by 70Turbobug (Post 72425)
Thanks Wally! I will be sending the heads off next week sometime,they will basically be the version 5 heads that Remmele offers only with sodium filled exhaust valves.If your header hasnīt cracked or any other issues by now,it wonīt in the future either.So 1:0 for you ;)

Only 1:0 ? :lmao:
But serieusly, you can also consider the CSP sidewinder header which has stub-pipes, is also stainless and seemed very well made also. I like stub-pipes for a turbo engine.
Furthermore, the equal length IS an advantage with a turbo engine as well. Trust me ;) (4:0 :lmao:)
Quote:

Armin has also upgraded to a 2.2 liter! Although with a 78mm Demello crank and a Garrett 2871 journal bearing turbo.He made 2 new videos also: this one is with the K26/K27 turbo:http://www.myvideo.de/watch/6952429/...g_Classic_2009 and this one is with the 2871 turbo: http://www.myvideo.de/watch/6952465/...zburgring_2009.
Cool vid's! Its alomost embarressing to see how he closes in and overtakes all those Porsches... but he should wear a helmet at the track I think (second vid) ;)
He is probably a better track driver than I am, but I think I do better at the strip :D

bow November 21st 2009 12:41

i like that flywheel home made?

70Turbobug November 21st 2009 12:47

The CSP header is well made,but also considerably more expensive 560 Euros vs. 880 Euros.The A-1 header is also an option.But the price/performance of the BAS speaks seems better to me.The stub pipes from Armin I will be using are better/stronger than the CSP stubpipes included with their header.Did you make any mods to the header?

Quote:

Cool vid's! Its alomost embarressing to see how he closes in and overtakes all those Porsches... but he should wear a helmet at the track I think (second vid)
He is probably a better track driver than I am, but I think I do better at the strip
Embarrassing for those Porsche drivers for sure and he still only uses 1.3 bar boost.Check out his other vids also where he chases a Ferrari and GT40 around the track.I would have loved to have seen the look on their faces! I wouldnīt say heīs better at the track - he just might be a little crazier than you,though :D He still drives to and from the track with it and drives it nearly everyday...when heīs not driving his 2 liter type 4 turbo 912.

70Turbobug November 21st 2009 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by bow (Post 72427)
i like that flywheel home made?

Thanks,no itīs just an ordinary 215mm flywheel that has been machined.Many remove material further inward or machine holes between the clutch surface area and the flange.That doesnīt help so much imho since the weight on the outside of the clutch surface area has more gyroscopic effect and inertia than further inboard.Thatīs why I had outer area machined.Thatīs nothing new though - there are a few tuners here in Germany who have been doing this for many years.

Wally November 21st 2009 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by 70Turbobug (Post 72429)
Many remove material further inward or machine holes between the clutch surface area and the flange.That doesnīt help so much imho since the weight on the outside of the clutch surface area has more gyroscopic effect and inertia than further inboard.Thatīs why I had outer area machined.

Good thinking! making the rotating mass lesser on a turbo engine might help with spool-up as it revs up quicker.
Light-weight pistons and rods help as well in that train of thought.

Brave of Armin to run on the track with 1,3 bar!

bow November 22nd 2009 02:51

hmm food for thought thanks! maybe i can find someone around here who can do it! wishful thinking im sure

70Turbobug November 22nd 2009 08:52

Quote:

Good thinking! making the rotating mass lesser on a turbo engine might help with spool-up as it revs up quicker.
Light-weight pistons and rods help as well in that train of thought.
Light rods and pistons would surely make it rev even quicker for sure.That might be an option later on.For now I will use the stock rods with Raceware bolts.

Quote:

Brave of Armin to run on the track with 1,3 bar!
He had ran up to 1.8 bar in a long distance race once without knowing it.The boost gauge still showed around 1.3 bar.Later he found a small hole in the wastegate senseline.All other gauges showed normal operating temps - i.e. CHT,oil temp and afr...and still drove home after the race from the A-1 ring back to Ulm 400km IIRC...
with stock cast bus pistons!

Wally November 22nd 2009 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by 70Turbobug (Post 72428)
- he just might be a little crazier than you,though :D

Errr, make that a LOT crazier :D

70Turbobug November 22nd 2009 10:16

Iīm sure it wonīt take long before become that nutty aslo :D

Wally November 22nd 2009 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by 70Turbobug (Post 72051)
I wanted a cam slightly more agressive than the 119 without losing idle quality.Iīm hoping it will be a bit more snappy and faster on spool up.My original choice was the 163 but the 86a runs much smoother and I believe it is a better cam for a 2 liter. .

Just checked webcamshafts website and I think the valve lift of the 86a is too small (11.05mm). Turbo's love valve lift is my current experience.
There's probably a reason Webcam advertises their 119 as a turbo cam...
I would advise to change the cam to one with about half an inch lift (12,7mm)
1.7mm lift difference is A LOT!

Just my 0.02 cents worth of friendly advise :rolleyes:

70Turbobug November 22nd 2009 15:15

Youīre right about turbos loving high lift,I might trade it in for my original choice the webcam 163.I havenīt really decided yet.I like the 86a because itīs a "quiet" cam and easy on the valve train and still pull to 7K.As you know choosing the right cam is always a challenge.What doesnīt make it any easier is following your experiences and seeing and driving with Arminīs 2 liter turbo with a low (11 mm) cam and the performance that his engine has.Itīs actually not that spectacular riding in Arminīs turbo and you think at first itīs kind of a pooch,then you glance over at the speedo and youīre doing 260K/mh.His car doesnīt have the snap or agressivenesse that we see with the type 1s i.e. 2276 or so.But itīs just incredibly fast.Itīs a ticket magnet...

Wally November 22nd 2009 15:48

Well, your the builder, you must choose eventually ;)

70Turbobug December 15th 2009 05:51

2 Attachment(s)
A very small update: The CU heads are back from glasbead blasting.To my surprise,they are in much better shape than I thought! Today they are getting shipped off for porting,seats,valves etc.

70Turbobug December 18th 2009 05:51

1 Attachment(s)
Another small update.The case work is finished.The mains had to spindled out to 0.50mm.Now I will clean the case up a little better and then install the Raceware headstuds.

Wally December 18th 2009 05:59

Good progress!
What are those weird looking copper-coloured thingys sticking out from under the bores?

70Turbobug December 18th 2009 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally (Post 72841)
Good progress!
What are those weird looking copper-coloured thingys sticking out from under the bores?


Oil squirters to cool the pistons.Simple but effective;)

Wally December 18th 2009 08:14

Thought so, but how are those fixated? Mine sit much higer up and into the bearing saddle.

70Turbobug December 19th 2009 07:28

The saddle is tapped and the squirters are screwed in.The squirters are the tips from a wire welder.Iīve seen others use grease nipples/fittings aswell.


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