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-   -   CNC made aluminum Uniball rear suspension system (https://www.germanlook.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11413)

-Alex- January 26th 2012 06:01

CNC made aluminum Uniball rear suspension system
 
I am making similar uniball system for rear suspension, what remmele, MBT, red9 and others are offering for 944 aluarms.

All parts will be made from 7075 T6 aluminum, threaded bar is made from 4130 chromoly.


Inner part of the uniball housing supports itself to the end of the torsionbar housing.


Includes all bolts and Hirschmann M20 uniball joint. Uniball joint is supported from both sides.


Nothing is welded on this kit.


I will make as many sets as people want, but from order only. Price will be 800 euros, due to higher machining costs, machining takes about 1 hour per part.


To every kit i can have made little custom features, since i will be making these one kit at time.

I can also put false value for customs :)

50% payment required in advance, so i can order materials and uniball joints etc. Moneytransfer and paypal works for me.



PM or email me if you want one!


alexstorskrubb@jippii.fi



Here is second updated model and one real one with remmele uniball kit, first cad picture is for 944 aluarms, and second is for 924/beetle steel arms.

http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/2...ystem70751.jpg

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/9...tem12mmthi.jpg

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/5483/img3006p.jpg

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/1638/img3001hh.jpg

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/7904/06062012.jpg

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/4692/060620122.jpg

http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/8766/060620123.jpg

jmd January 26th 2012 18:17

Some one in the US making these?
 
Is anyone in the US / Canada making these? I need a set that's supportive of 944T trailing arms...

PM me and let me know.
thanks!

randyj January 26th 2012 20:42

Alex,

Have you already made a set of those? I thought that I had seen those before but could not find the post. I guess you cant use the uni-ball system and still retain the torsion bar. I would like to keep mine and just have some helper coilovers like they use on the 944.

Randy

-Alex- January 27th 2012 04:18

Sorry, i havent made these yet. Having hard time to find strong M20 uniball here in finland, Fluro or Hirschmann i would prefer. Each cost about 60-75 euros each, yikes!


Also found that SKF makes these too, should be strong enough, static 51KN and dynamic 31KN. Our use is 80-90% static.

http://www.skf.com/skf/productcatalo...odid=208400017

-Alex- February 3rd 2012 05:43

http://s14.postimage.org/ui48y5xrj/U...4_system_5.jpg


More info about my design and its strength. Small bolt holes are 10,5mm and bolt holding uniball is 20, so there is very little "slop". Actually there is M20 thread on the inner part.

I did few strenght tests with solidworks simulation tool, using 6082 T6 material.

I have chosen Hirschmann M20 joint, which can stand 4500kg static load and 9000kg dynamic load.


Small bolt holes were used to "fix" the part and "force" from uniball bolt hole. Force is 2000kg per on 20mm hole, force direction to the back.

Inner part factor of safety is 3,5 and outer part factor of safety is over 5. Putting these two parts together should make a strong housing for uniball joint.

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/664...iskiinnike.jpg

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/7908/...kokiinnike.jpg

beetle1303 February 4th 2012 10:50

Hey Alex,nice model... I'm using SolidWorks as well (10 years know).
I would like to see the stress and strain charts, max values etc and deformation as well...
What factor of safety are you using?
Do you need some calculations for input forces suspension dynamics, braking etc?? if so pm me

Chris

-Alex- February 4th 2012 12:55

Hello, i have been using solidworks about 6 years. I found few litlle weak spots from the bracket, so i redesigned it.



http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/3...944system5.jpg

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/2...944system7.jpg


I am not using any preferred factor of safety, but bigger i get, better it will be. All tests have been done with 20000N=2000kg force. I tried also different directions the with same force on these uniball housings per part, i am getting 2 or higher factor of safety :)

I could try get the stress, strain and deformation charts. Bracket will be made still from S355 steel, but i would prefer Optim 500 highstrength steel, which also you can get up to 60mm thicknesses, the best material would be 7075 aluminum, but it would rise the price of this kit.

Wally February 4th 2012 13:19

Very, very nice!
What part is the 'bracket'? Anything connected to the trailing arm should be as light as possible as its unsprung weigth. Alu would be preferable over steel with that thinking.

-Alex- February 4th 2012 13:40

Bracket is the part that used to attach whole system to the arm :) Uniball bearing housing is aluminum.

Yes, i would too prefer aluminum, definetly the 7075 T6 series aluminum, but steel bracket is in this pricerange.

Strengths: Normal steel is 355N / mm2, 6082 T6 aluminum is 270N / mm2, 7075 T6 aluminum is about 500N / mm2

-Alex- February 4th 2012 18:05

All test done again with 2000kg.


Uniball housing outer part stress chart

http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/9...keulkopuol.jpg


Uniball housing outer part displacement chart

http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/9...keulkopuol.jpg


Uniball housing outer part when load is 10 000kg, factor of safety is 0.85, notice the red little weak spots :)

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/9...keulkopuol.jpg




Arm attachment part, FOS is 1.38 with 2000kg load.


Arm attachment part stress chart

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/5...nikestress.jpg


Arm attachment part displacement chart

http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/3...kedisplace.jpg


Arm attachment part when load is 6000kg, factor of safety is 0.45, notice again the red little weak spots :)

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3...e16000kgyg.jpg

Mr Big February 10th 2012 20:25

These look amazing. Will they work with the early steel arms?

Humble February 10th 2012 21:52

I'm very interested in getting a set of these, how soon are you going to start making these and what kind of fulfillment time do you expect before getting them shipped?

owdlvr February 10th 2012 22:40

How far into the torsion tube (if at all) do your mounts go?

-Dave

-Alex- February 11th 2012 04:56

I will be only making these from order, and i want 50% advance to get materials and joints.

I can also make all parts from 7075 T6 aluminum, which is twice stronger than 6082 aluminum and third stronger than S355 steel. Extra expense is 110 euros if you want everything from 7075 T6.

But 6082 and S355 can also handle the stresses wery well.

My system at the moment doesnt intrude into torsionbar housing, but i am thinking that it could be like this, at same time it also stops water getting into TB splines.

http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/2...temrubbers.jpg

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/241...temrubbers.jpg

Wally February 11th 2012 07:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Alex- (Post 83130)
I can also make all parts from 7075 T6 aluminum, which is twice stronger than 6082 aluminum and third stronger than S355 steel. Extra expense is 110 euros if you want everything from 7075 T6.

But 6082 and S355 can also handle the stresses wery well.

My system at the moment doesnt intrude into torsionbar housing, but i am thinking that it could be like this, at same time it also stops water getting into TB splines.

7075 T6 is nice! If its even stronger, you could spare some material and make it a little lighter still?
The intrusion into the torsionbar housing seems not needed unless you run a dailt driver with these. Less the nose it would also save some expensive alu and again, weight ;)
Interested, but need to build up my engine first again..

volksmeister February 11th 2012 08:47

Alex is helping me with a steel arm version for my uniball setup.. a real standup guy with plenty of good ideas to offer:)
Spoke to him about the possible water ingress into the torsion tube from the rear wheels spinning and the idea of maybe using the OE springplate bushings as a water stop.. (although an old rag and some sealant would probably do the trick too). He quickly put the idea into 3D in a blink of an eye.. great collaboration
Between the monsoon season and high local humidity we get over here, it seems like a good idea:)

-Alex- February 11th 2012 12:41

Yes, it is easiest to use stock TB rubber bushing as a seal, but i dont think it needs any more support.

I plan to make M10 bolt holes small as possible, maybe 10,2 or 10,5mm, so there would be less slop.

Also if making from 7075 T6, whole system can be little slimmer, due to the strength of the 7075.


How much should there be distance from the housing cover inner surface to arm attachment surface? Springplate is 4mm thick, maybe this is about 5mm?


One my finnish vw fellow said that these uniball systems would last longer, if at the inner pivot would have bronze bushing or bearing instead of rubber / urethane bushing, but wonder how rough the ride would be then ;)

Humble February 11th 2012 14:19

Can you take credit cards? ;)

Also is there enough room in the design to countersink the allen bolts fully or even partially?

owdlvr February 11th 2012 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Alex- (Post 83135)
Yes, it is easiest to use stock TB rubber bushing as a seal, but i dont think it needs any more support.


The off-road guys (Class 11), have found the four mounting bolts shear out of the Torsion Bar housing, which is why they recommend a section of tubing goes into the TB housing (without bushing) to eliminate the stress on the mounting bolts. I'll be the first to admit yours are far nicer then mine, but this shows the tube we welded to the backside:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7031/6...c99a45a6_b.jpg

I suppose the argument that the on-road forces aren't as strong is a somewhat valid one...but add loads of grip such as in a track setting and I suspect you'd be seeing similar load values, just on a more progressive curve.

-Dave

-Alex- February 12th 2012 04:45

Sorry,

Only money transfer and paypal :)

There might be room for countersink the allen bolts, but i have too see if its still as strong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Humble (Post 83137)
Can you take credit cards? ;)

Also is there enough room in the design to countersink the allen bolts fully or even partially?


beetle1303 February 12th 2012 07:35

Alex, nice results. great work.
I would prefer having a tube without the stock bushing in place, since water ingression is apparent after a while, and it gives better load spread capabilities.

I would try to make a rubber flange to put between the inner part and the mounting face.

owdlvr, you got it right, off road sees a very high peak load ie when landing after a jump but an easier life cycle ie while sliding on gravel and on road sees a harder life cycle since there is much more grip and track cars have the hardest continuous life cycle due to extreme grip offered at the track

Chris

randyj February 12th 2012 21:38

Would you be able to use the torsion bars with your set up?

Randy

owdlvr February 12th 2012 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by randyj (Post 83152)
Would you be able to use the torsion bars with your set up?

Randy

Nope.

The whole point of these items are to create a pivot when eliminating the Torsion Bars.

-Dave

volksmeister February 13th 2012 06:31

Alex, can the inner bearing plate be machined to close off the gap (red arrow) between the inner mounting surface and the rear shock tower?


http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/4784/photoqah.jpg

-Alex- February 13th 2012 07:59

Possibly, like this, but i dont know the depth of the gap. Do you prefer this or earlier designed system with OE rubber bushing acting as seal?

Also, do you want to be the system made out of 7075 or 6082/S355?


http://www.manxgallery.org/gallery/a...remmele1_1.jpg

-Alex- February 13th 2012 10:32

How much should this dimension be? Its the gap between springplate and stock springplate cover. I am thinking maybe 0,5mm.

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/6...944system8.jpg

Turbonutta March 2nd 2012 12:12

Alex they look awesome out of interest what the shipping cost to uk PM me if you like, many thanks

-Alex- March 3rd 2012 17:15

Shipping costs are:

1. Sweden, Denmark, Germany and Estonia 28 euros

2. Spain, UK, Ireland, Italy, Austria, Greek, Poland, Portugal and France 40 euros.

3. Usa, Kanada, Iceland, Canary Islands, Norway, Switzerland and Russia 56 euros

4. Australia, Japan, China, Hong-kong, Thailand, other Asian destinations and New Zealand 65 euros

-Alex- April 5th 2012 14:34

This kit is specially made for volksmeister, feels kinda tougher than remmele one, but actually lighter because its fully made out of 7075 aluminum.



http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/3894/05042012.jpg

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/5012/050420122.jpg

Wally April 5th 2012 14:36

Very nice!

-Alex- April 13th 2012 02:59

Second set i am making for 944 aluarms. SInce making these from 7075, it can be made little slimmer and lighter than using 6082/S355 materials.

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/2...ystem70751.jpg

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/5...ystem70752.jpg

Obiwan April 13th 2012 03:29

One 7075 set ordered :D

-Alex- May 12th 2012 11:02

Now there might be possibility to get these anodized to black or grey. I have to ask the price.


Obiwans set will be ready littlebit later, due to machinist making his own parts for drag race event.

Uniball kit has same price until july, because after that my machinist goes to china for few months. After then price may rise 50-100 euros for few months, because i have to use another machinist.

volksmeister May 12th 2012 21:45

Finally mocked up the uniball that Alex has made.. :D
Everything looks cherry so far except that the damn early shock tower design doesn't give much top clearance.. I estimate around 2.5" travel before the top bolt on the uniball bracket would hit the underside of the shock tower.. I would have to probably swap out that bolt for a countersunk one or something..

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/4050/p1060085copy.jpg

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/2...060095copy.jpg

Wally May 13th 2012 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by volksmeister (Post 83808)

Aren't you supposed to mount that on the other side of the trailing arm? :confused:
Maybe I am confused with alu trailing arms. It just looks odd like that to me, but maybe its just me :o

-Alex- May 13th 2012 04:59

As far as i know, all stock springplates and remmele & mbt uniball kit are bolted to innerside of arm. :)

http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/78561.jpg

http://i24.servimg.com/u/f24/14/44/14/06/42210.jpg

Wally May 13th 2012 05:51

Excellent! My bad. Its been a while since I looked there ;)
The difference in shock tower height is considerable now I see these pics from late models!

-Alex- May 13th 2012 06:49

Somewhere i found remmele kit installed to steel irs arms, i sent it to Volksmeister, but i cannot find any more it..damn.

volksmeister May 13th 2012 09:30

Found it.. Here's the pic of steel arms with remmele uniball

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/916...lophanging.jpg

A bit more got done today with the rear rotors and wheels on..
Will probably have to clearance the shock tower to avoid interference with the suspension movement..
open to ideas.. anyone?

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2839/p1060088v.jpg

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/149/p1060091copy.jpg

-Alex- May 13th 2012 09:58

Can you show pic where uniball kit hits to shocktower and then measure between lower and upper shock point?

Just thinking what is the min length for shock.

Looks like you can you do little clearancing to shock tower. Looks also that you cannot take any material from arm bracket itself, because its straigth sides seems to hit to shock tower.

yeah, it looks totally different than later one. Maybe you could change latemodel shock towers, some work, but cheap in parts ;) I would consider this.

Body attachment points at rear may need massaging, but its quite common thing to install older body to latemodel chassis. I think mendeola oval has latemodel chassis too.


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