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-   -   Mythbuster: continuing project thread of my 1303 '75 (https://www.germanlook.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9953)

Wally May 11th 2010 13:25

Just fixated the ends with some bars I welded quickly so they won't flutter at speed (hopefully) and I can drive/test this contraption.
Just fixed two boost leaks from my central (self made...) boost line box...(oeps) Maybe that will fix the 1 bar boost limit I seem to keep experiencing, but I doubt it.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...5.jpg~original

70Turbobug May 13th 2010 09:00

Looks great Wally! I think it will work well also.I´m not sure if the cable attached to the bumper will hold up.The cable isn´t the problem,but I fear the bumper may bend at high speed,you might need a more stable mounting point,like the mounting bracket for the bumper inside the wheel well.

Wally May 13th 2010 11:29

Thanks! Yeah, your probably right as it all hangs now on the front bumper brackets. It would be better to support it a to the inner fenders as well probably.
Anyways, I did a test run today with the splitter for the first time and ... it stays put very well already :-))
Even above 200 km/h it doesn't bend too much at all. Very happy with that.
I got a youtube vid uploading now that should show how stable the splitter is.

Furthermore and MOST importantly I finally got the EBC working! It turned out I had a wire not connected at all.. (oeps)
I now can run a stable 1.3 bar (19-20 psi) boost.
I was so happy that I scheduled a new dyno run for coming saturday. Really, really curieus is or what extra hp this will give.

chug_A_bug May 13th 2010 14:06

nice work Wally.. so lets see the video :D

Chris.

zen May 13th 2010 14:30

I've debated internally about a splitter for a long time and just never did anything with it. Good to see you guys moving forward and providing some insight. I don't need more to do, but you are tempting me.

Sandeep May 13th 2010 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally (Post 75959)
Thanks! Yeah, your probably right as it all hangs now on the front bumper brackets. It would be better to support it a to the inner fenders as well probably.
Anyways, I did a test run today with the splitter for the first time and ... it stays put very well already :-))
Even above 200 km/h it doesn't bend too much at all. Very happy with that.
I got a youtube vid uploading now that should show how stable the splitter is.

Furthermore and MOST importantly I finally got the EBC working! It turned out I had a wire not connected at all.. (oeps)
I now can run a stable 1.3 bar (19-20 psi) boost.
I was so happy that I scheduled a new dyno run for coming saturday. Really, really curieus is or what extra hp this will give.


Fantastic developments Wally ! I always wondered what / how a splitter is / works ... looks pretty cool, and looking forward to see the video.

Are you talking about a seperate EBC other than the DTA ecu, or are you using the PID algorithm ? I thought you were using PID .... Hoping you hit 400 FWHP on the dyno :notworthy:

Best of luck.

Sandeep

Wally May 13th 2010 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandeep (Post 75967)
Fantastic developments Wally ! I always wondered what / how a splitter is / works ... looks pretty cool, and looking forward to see the video.

Are you talking about a seperate EBC other than the DTA ecu, or are you using the PID algorithm ? I thought you were using PID .... Hoping you hit 400 FWHP on the dyno :notworthy:

Best of luck.

Sandeep

Yes, I am pretty stoked its working properly. Its a stand-alone EBC (Gizzmo) after all, as I got tired playing with the settings in the DTA. The problem may have been the original volkswagen 1.8T N75-boost relais, not the DTA...
The boost relais supplied with the Gizzmo is very different and they claim its for better control. They might just be right. The original VW N75 relais may just be an on/off relais, while these are more easy to (PID) control.
I noticed the boost relais on DIYauto.com (?) looks a lot like it and I would advice to get that relais and try the DTA ecu-control again with that one.
There are so many variables which influence proper boost control, its not even funny... Other example: I changed out the original boost line from the relais to the compressor housing (very small inner diameter) to a bigger boost line and connected it to the boost box where all other lines come together: less boost at waste-gate setting!! The smaller line already caused a 0.25 bar boost drop, so inversely made boost better controllable (bigger line) by the EBC when it was working finally.

Still, the possibilties with the ecu are cool too. Especially the duty map (open loop) dependant on TPS and RPM is nice if you want half boost at half throttle for instance. No stand-alone EBC has that possibility afaik.

The vid had to be reloaded...just stoppd loading for some odd reason. I have had the spy camera mounted to the underside of the bumper aimed at the splitter and part of the Kamai...

Wally May 13th 2010 17:13

Its processing now, but this is the link for later:
Very boring vid, but it was just for myself testing the splitter movement relative to the bumper. Speed was just about 135 mph at some point so I know now that it will stay together for most applications ;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg4sjWuuY6Y

Wally May 15th 2010 11:16

Had another run on the rollers today after I finally got a stable boost regulation working.

She made ....381 Hp at 6650 rpm and 20 psi (1.35bar) :D
Torque was 456 Nm or about 337 lbs.ft (at 5300 rpm)
No engine problems at all, cool running and drove home again :D:D

I wanted to see if the CB hats were lifting at this boost, so I made a small vid of the engine bay during this 20 psi run. Don't see anything moving at all, so thats probably a good thing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hf9GfPYoW0

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...3.jpg~original

volkdent May 15th 2010 13:59

That is just awesome!!! I love your torque/power curve, looks like a lot of fun. Congrats on all your hard work over the years, I'll always give you a hard time when things let go, but in the end you've worked diligently to prove the relative reliability with big air-cooled power on a controlled budget. Hats off here!

Jason

ricola May 15th 2010 14:05

Congratulations, those are some good numbers!

Rich

vdubzack May 15th 2010 14:53

Daaamn It man, I'll never catch up now!

Sandeep May 15th 2010 20:35

:notworthy::notworthy::notworthy:

Sandeep

NO_H2O May 15th 2010 21:49

Sweet numbers Wally. I have thought about a splitter like that myself too.

Wally May 16th 2010 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by volkdent (Post 75994)
That is just awesome!!! I love your torque/power curve, looks like a lot of fun. Congrats on all your hard work over the years, I'll always give you a hard time when things let go, but in the end you've worked diligently to prove the relative reliability with big air-cooled power on a controlled budget. Hats off here!

Jason

Thanks Jason!
But I must comment on the "relative reliability" part :rolleyes:
If you referring to the broken rockers, they were just a tuning fault of mine running the engine into overboost and getting hard fuel cut-outs and associated backfires.. The funny part is just that a lot of ancillaries have gotten damage (bend throttle plates, burst boost lines, two broken rockers) due to the boost-cut-outs but the long block is still solid as a rock.
The basic concept of this type of engine has proven itself beyond doubt.
Furthermore, I ran the 350 hp tune over half an hour mostly WOT, full-on at a race track (Zandvoort). I did the same doing 8 laps of 10 minutes per lap (21 km's each lap) on the Nurbürgring last month and your calling this 'relative reliability'? Come on man, just admit I totally detroyed your reason for running a watercooled engine alltogether :lmao:

But I love you too and truely appreciate your craftsmanship on your car ;)

Its totally amazing that the 103 cast-alu bored Mahle-Oettinger cylinders held up as much as they did, while we all know that a smaller bore would have been much better.
Stock case, stock heads, stock crank and stock rods. "relative reliability'...pfft please! Aircooled FTW! :lmao:

70Turbobug May 16th 2010 11:36

Very impressive Wally!! As said many times before,the evolution of your car is phenomenal! :notworthy:
I don´t think it will be long before we see 400HP!! Were the bent throttleplates in the Jenvey TB?

Wally May 16th 2010 11:52

Thanks; I think I could have gotten the 400 with a little more agressive tuning, but the current map is very safe and good enough then ;)

Yep, they were from the Jenvey TB's. Not the Jenveys fault I must add ;)

I also bleeded some air from the Hurst line lock which made a pleasent difference on the drive to the dyno especially since I am trying out the ceramic front disks again:
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...1.jpg~original

volkdent May 16th 2010 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally (Post 76010)
Thanks Jason!
But I must comment on the "relative reliability" part :rolleyes:
If you referring to the broken rockers, they were just a tuning fault of mine running the engine into overboost and getting hard fuel cut-outs and associated backfires.. The funny part is just that a lot of ancillaries have gotten damage (bend throttle plates, burst boost lines, two broken rockers) due to the boost-cut-outs but the long block is still solid as a rock.
The basic concept of this type of engine has proven itself beyond doubt.
Furthermore, I ran the 350 hp tune over half an hour mostly WOT, full-on at a race track (Zandvoort). I did the same doing 8 laps of 10 minutes per lap (21 km's each lap) on the Nurbürgring last month and your calling this 'relative reliability'? Come on man, just admit I totally detroyed your reason for running a watercooled engine alltogether :lmao:

But I love you too and truely appreciate your craftsmanship on your car ;)

Its totally amazing that the 103 cast-alu bored Mahle-Oettinger cylinders held up as much as they did, while we all know that a smaller bore would have been much better.
Stock case, stock heads, stock crank and stock rods. "relative reliability'...pfft please! Aircooled FTW! :lmao:

By "relative" I only mean that 100k Km from now if you've continued to have no major issues I'll be flying over to have a pint with you! It's super reliable, just not sure it's super reliable compared to modern engines. I'm not worried at all about running 350hp for 60k miles on a modern h20 cooled car, it's reliability over time that garnishes the "relative" comment. When that myth is busted (notice I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt!) I really think you need to write down all the things you've don, settings you use, and parts you've used because to me it seems like the perfect combination. Wish I had the skill and knowledge to be able to pull off what you did. Especially when it ends up sounding so awesome on the track!:D

Jason

Wally May 16th 2010 16:56

Hehe :cool:
60K miles or km's driving on the road using the car as a daily is totally meaningless for the engine with regard to stress and load imho. Its the track driving at mostly WOT and/or full boost what counts.
I think I put more stress on my bug's engine during the 5K or so I drive it per year then I do on my Passat that I drive 30K per year...

But I am also sure, I don't ever convince you right? :)
Which is just as well probably, as I don't have anything to sell ;)

petevw May 17th 2010 01:43

Congrats Wally, that's a badass bug you have on your hands.

Just watched your splitter, engine, and ring1/3 clips, AGAIN! :lmao:

Pete

70Turbobug May 17th 2010 04:14

I agree with Wally on that one.1000km of racing is like 10,000+km of daily driving.The wear on the bearings,rings,etc. at high rpm and high loads for long periods of time has an effect on every engine,no matter if it´s water cooled or not.Another thing to consider is modern engines are primarily made to keep emissions,fuel economy and production costs at a minimum.In the 70´s german manufacturers used casting and forging processes that are unaffordable by todays standards,that´s one reason why the type 4 case and bottom end is so strong.As long as the temps stay "in the green",there´s no reason why Wally´s type 4 shouldn´t go the same distance as a Subaru with the same horsepower.The materials are not as different as you think,actually most modern engines use inferior metals and/or metalurgical processes to keep production costs down.

volkdent May 17th 2010 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally (Post 76016)
But I am also sure, I don't ever convince you right? :)
Which is just as well probably, as I don't have anything to sell ;)

I love it!!! Well let me tell you, after all the good things that have come out of your engine storys, you are making a very good sale, so maybe you should sell something. I wouldn't have thought about doing an aircooled again until you've shared your experiences with us. Even spending more on some more sturdy parts would still net a lot of power for the money. If I ever got another car I didn't want to cut up I would seriously consider copying your setup.

Thanks again.

Jason

Wally May 26th 2010 12:28

Thanks for the props Jason! really!

Some vids of the last (Nurburg)Ring outing (16th april), tnx to John, the 'CNCwizzard' and Robin aka 'Blue thunder':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TF2gL_LlP7Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc7ezxzMDs4

Lots of pics from then too from the Adenauer Forst turn:
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...0.jpg~original
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...9.jpg~original

Cam from Aussie-land contemplating if he should...:-)
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...9.jpg~original
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...1.jpg~original
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...9.jpg~original
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...4.jpg~original
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...1.jpg~original

johnnyvee May 27th 2010 10:47

sic

NO_H2O May 27th 2010 13:25

Very nice. What a place to take a spirited drive.

70Turbobug May 28th 2010 07:32

It is a beautiful track,but those looks can easily kill.It´s quite a challenge to drive at high speed and is very tricky,bumpy and slippery in places.But it is also the ultimate thrill imho,21km of pure adrenalin :D

Wally May 28th 2010 07:37

I totally agree Mark. Did you ever drive there?
You should really ride shot-gun with me there sometime this year if/when we go again ;-)

Wally May 28th 2010 08:49

Flowing shot of 1/8 take off on street tires:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...3/IMG_6801.jpg
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...3/IMG_6802.jpg
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...3/IMG_6803.jpg
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...3/IMG_6804.jpg
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...3/IMG_6805.jpg
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...3/IMG_6806.jpg
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...3/IMG_6807.jpg
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...3/IMG_6808.jpg
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...3/IMG_6809.jpg

On video (onboard) the run looked liked this:
1e run:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVrA77tr66c

2e run:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSVtLXheaRA

Scotts73SB May 28th 2010 18:02

Awesome the way that car sits.. those tires and rims look beautiful too!
Great pics too!

vdubzack May 28th 2010 18:10

Wheeeeee!!!

chug_A_bug May 28th 2010 20:50

very nice as always wally ;)
but I see you weren't running your "NEW" splitter?? on the ring...
BTW it's Sounds Soo MEAN in boost :D

Chris

Wally May 29th 2010 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by chug_A_bug (Post 76269)
but I see you weren't running your "NEW" splitter?? on the ring...
Chris

Hey Chris,
The splitter is just a (very) recent development and the Ring pics were from april 16th. The 1/8 mile drag on the Assen track were from last monday ('bank holiday' over here) ;)
I _think_ it does really help. Car feels indeed more 'planted' at high speeds. The Kamai is better held in place (rock solid) by the splitter as well. Since the Kamai was probably not designed for speeds over 130 mph, if for nothing else, just the rock solid mounting of the underside of the Kamai, was worth the fitment of the splitter imo.

Last vid (promise :lmao:) from the 1/8 mile at Assen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVx6r...os=AFhEFEjSe6U

70Turbobug June 4th 2010 11:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally (Post 76242)
I totally agree Mark. Did you ever drive there?
You should really ride shot-gun with me there sometime this year if/when we go again ;-)

Yes,I´ve been on the Ring twice riding shotgun in a 911SC and drove once with a suped up Golf 1 GTI.Nothing in comparison to your ride though.So,if time permits I would be more than happy to take a ride with you on the ring!! Thanks for the offer!!:D

Wally June 6th 2010 08:09

Well, I take it rather easy on the Ring, but driving there in a bug is much more fun :)

Yesterday I drove 325 km (200 miles) to Bitburg, ran 8 low 12-second runs and drove the 200 miles back home.
Best pass was a 12.04 at 114.8 mph, but it turned out that my clutch was slipping everytime boost came in hard...so no 11's still :(
I was very amazed the clutch holded it as long as it did, but obviously the dynorun in one single gear is a lot different then running slicks and letting the torque loose. My 60 ft times were therfore rather poor (1.9-2.0). First tun was a 1.77 but that was at a lower boost.

One of the runs (more on my y-tube account):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clsjH8uGd4s

On the way home on an unlimited part of the german Autobahn I let the car run, trying out if the front splitter helped at all. Last high speed run was a little scary, but this time it still felt rather stable. Unfortunately a bend in the road (which was taken well over 200 km/h) and traffic made me not prolong the run. Boost was about 17 psi. Towards 5800 rpm in 5th gear the digital speedo read a max of 220 km/h (137 mph):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jTdDENIXwY

dub_crazee June 6th 2010 16:37

awesome wally - shame you didnt make the 11s though! i bet the guy in the merc was a bit suprised to see a bug fly past at nearly 140 mph :D

judgie June 7th 2010 04:08

i was amazed at the differance the front splitter made to high speed stabilty on my race car. it will be having a new one for next year when it comes back out.
shame you missed out the 11's but you know there in the car.

NO_H2O June 7th 2010 07:31

Looks to be smooth at 137. I might just have to cut one out for my car.

70Turbobug June 12th 2010 07:28

Great vids Wally!

The car looks very stable at speed,nice set up! With that gear/tire/HP combo you can crack the 250Km/h.Armin ran 257 Km/h (digital speedo aswell) with my 90kg ass sitting along side.Rpm was approx. 6200 with a 225/50/15 tire 3.44 r+p and 0.82 4th.
boost was about 1.2 bar.Wastegate was set at 1.3 bar.

Wally June 27th 2010 13:21

Clutch is clearly at its power limit... :

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...ic9inch002.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...ic9inch004.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...ic9inch006.jpg

Wally June 27th 2010 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by 70Turbobug (Post 76500)
Great vids Wally!

The car looks very stable at speed,nice set up! With that gear/tire/HP combo you can crack the 250Km/h.Armin ran 257 Km/h (digital speedo aswell) with my 90kg ass sitting along side.Rpm was approx. 6200 with a 225/50/15 tire 3.44 r+p and 0.82 4th.
boost was about 1.2 bar.Wastegate was set at 1.3 bar.

Mark,

257 km/h is sort of crazy in a beetle on the highway/autobahn. I recalculated and that is 251 km/h, which is close enough. Crazy...how does his stay stable for that? He runs less aero then I do, but his car is also less wide, so maybe that helps some to gain the speed. Still, over 250 km/h is wow!


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