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-   -   Mythbuster: continuing project thread of my 1303 '75 (https://www.germanlook.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9953)

Wally May 21st 2009 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandeep (Post 69725)
I'm going to guess ~340ish HP at the F/W, ~290ish HP at the wheels :eek:

Sandeep

Nooo, its only set at 14,5 psi! I am already very pleased if I break 300 flywheel hp, which is about (15%) 260 RWHP.
Remember that I have a small-ish turbo (same size you had before with the VF39) that on the best of the best tuned subaru's STi's gets 300 rwhp at 20-22 psi.
So, 290 -ish hp at the wheels would really be the max for this turbo at its optimum boost level of that 20 psi...

Still, its always nice to talk numbers :D

There are some more dyno-days planned and depending on how it goes, I will try to do a 20 psi run somewhere.
On 14th June, there is the Budel meet where I have to defend my last years win of highest aircooled power on the mobile dyno. I only had the stock 2 liter in back then and the wastegate operating on its own internal spring (7 psi), so the 'win' only took 167 hp then :rolleyes:

The then next dyno-day is 30th of june (or 1 juli) at Steve's open house in Belgium, where there may be some OFF (outlaw flat four) members when they come to europe for a week of EBI3 and Hessisch-Oldendorf or whatever this meet of really old cars is called :lmao: Maybe a magazine will be there too to do a story on some street cars with different hp levels. Their current 4-car line-up only went to 200 hp, so I volunteered :rolleyes: Not sure if our schedules match, so we'll see.

I love dyno events even more than drag racing to be honest.

Oh, almost forgot, I bought a slightly (according to the PO) used Bosch Motorsport '044' EFI pump from ebay, which should keep the fuel-flow and -pressure on the safe side. It obviously works well. Also interseting is that the 660 cc Siemens injectors are now back to 1.35 ms opening time at idle. Never could get below 2 ms with Bosch injectors before...

PPS: I looked up the VF34 turbo: most say its a 35 lbs/min turbo. I don't know what that means, but it has its flow limits around 300 hp 'they' say :rolleyes:

Jim May 22nd 2009 03:55

We definitely MUST see a video from the dyno session!!!!

Humble May 22nd 2009 12:47

Good luck with the dyno, and +1 for video :D

You should be happy with the bosch 044 motorsport pump. I've got one in my car running 50psi and 750cc RC injectors. I also had one with my old setup and it ran flawlessly for 6 years. I prefer the 044 to a walbro any day because they're quieter and more reliable.

Wally May 22nd 2009 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Humble (Post 69753)
Good luck with the dyno, and +1 for video :D

Allright, allright, I'll ask a friend to hold the video button pressed for the run ;)

Quote:

You should be happy with the bosch 044 motorsport pump. I've got one in my car running 50psi and 750cc RC injectors. I also had one with my old setup and it ran flawlessly for 6 years. I prefer the 044 to a walbro any day because they're quieter and more reliable.
I did read some walbro's break down too, so thats why the 044 indeed. And you are right about it being more quiet! This one is even more quiet than the bosch pump I had that was taken out of a porsche 911! Even though that one was made in germany and this one is made in tjecheslovakia (sp?) (by Bosch).
Thanks for the confirmation!

Humble May 22nd 2009 14:54

My roommate has a walbro pump in his rally car mounted in the trunk next to the fuel cell and when it's running it's as loud as the engine at idle, it really is that bad. I have mine mounted up front with rubber isolators and you can barely hear it when the motor is off, it's surprisingly quiet.

Wally May 23rd 2009 12:38

Allright, results are in and disappointing: same results as with the 2 ltr set-up! :confused:
235 RWHP and 270 FWHP (6K rpm) and the same-ish 255 ft.lbs or 350 Nm torque at a bit over 4K rpm at 14.5 psi:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...ingkamp003.jpg
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...4.jpg~original

Driving onto the mobile dyno:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOYaWh5hFSk
Dynorun itself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSoyPv_QhNo

RWHP:
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...ileruns001.jpg
Flywheel hp and torque:
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...ileruns002.jpg

It was a beautifull morning and the engine ran great, but I think it may not have gotten the right amount of fresh air because of a closed deck lid and a mediocre Jamex air filter (not the big K&N one I had before).
Or the turbo is just not making enough air (too small). Next time with the proper K&N and an open deck lid on 14th June, lets see if it makes a difference ;)

Sandeep May 23rd 2009 17:39

:confused:

Where is the ECU reading reading the MAP from ? Under the throttle butterflies or right at the turbo outlet ? If you are reading right at the turbo outlet, the MAP will be more than under the butterflies on boost because of piping and intercooler losses.

I have the same manifold "box" as you but read my map after the butterfly .. I tried both locations and the map at the turbo was 2psi greater than after the butterfly .... looks like my intercooler/piping loss is 2psi :eek:

Still wondering why the HP and TQ are the same as your 2 litre :(

Sandeep

petevw May 23rd 2009 22:39

Same Dyno used for the other 2L run?

Humble May 24th 2009 01:39

Don't be too down about the numbers until you do a little more digging. Were you datalogging the runs at all? Was there a compression change between the 2 engines? I'd leave the decklid on for dyno runs since it will give a more accurate "street" reading. I'm not sure that you're maxing the turbo yet even with a 2.2, I'd look at the cam, rockers and valves for lost hp.

Looks and sounds great in the video though, it sounds like it wants to keep going when you shut it down.

NO_H2O May 24th 2009 08:11

Looks and sounds great. I'm sure with some tuning you will find some power. I know on our 1.9 turbo project, like Sandeep, we found that taking the MAP/boost control sample downstream of the throttle plate made a big difference in the boost we could make. We hope to get back to tuning that combo more this summer. Datalogging will be key to ringing it out. Keep at it.

Wally May 24th 2009 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandeep (Post 69772)
Where is the ECU reading reading the MAP from ? Under the throttle butterflies or right at the turbo outlet ?
Sandeep

It reads from under the 4 butterflies of the TB's ;)

Ah, well, the 1/4 mile drag today went VERY well. Clutch holded out with the street tires, but with the slicks, it was too much and you could smell it (again).
I managed a 12.589/111 mph with the street tires and a 12.184 (no trap speed recorded) with the drag slicks. I am very happy with that :D
Especially as I was the fastest car of today (40 cars, 30 watercooled) :D
Had lots of fun today. Hopefully the guys made some pics I will link to later.

Wally May 24th 2009 14:07

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...1.jpg~original

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w.../IMG_04271.jpg
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w.../IMG_04281.jpg
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w.../IMG_04291.jpg
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w.../IMG_04301.jpg

My new rear window decall especially made for the large number of Civic participants :D
http://www.vwkever.com/evenementen/k...009-05_001.jpg

Steve C May 24th 2009 18:27

Hi Wally

Does the dyno have a "shootout mode"? Most dyno events use that so that you can compare apples with apples.

Some dyno queens get the operator to alter barometric pressure reading in shootout mode, a lower barometric pressure put in at higher barometric location will give a false high reading, the dyno makes a correction for higher altitude.

Maybe you can see this on your old dyno sheets and compare?

Steve

Wally May 26th 2009 16:40

Thanks for thinking with me Steve!

Here's a vid of the first run still with the street tires (12.5):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvEH8...e=channel_page

Steve C May 26th 2009 18:22

Hi Wally

That run looks quicker than 12.5.

Love your VTEC...THIS sticker, saw one on a WRX the other day, fear no Evo.

Steve

blitzvw May 27th 2009 04:51

Undoubtedly the nicest GermanLook car that I have ever seen!

Wally May 28th 2009 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve C (Post 69875)
Hi Wally

That run looks quicker than 12.5.

Love your VTEC...THIS sticker, saw one on a WRX the other day, fear no Evo.

Steve

Thanks! Here's the same run from another angle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg4p2...eature=channel
I had WAY too much fun there :)
Now that I have some things fixed (you learn every time your out running it)...can't wait to get to it again :D

New 6-puck:
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...1.jpg~original

NO_H2O May 29th 2009 01:01

Great video. thanks. Keep us updated.

Steve C May 29th 2009 01:21

Hi Wally

Very impressive. You don't have much room to stop at the end of the track, lucky your car is a German look and not a Cal look.

Steve

kuleinc May 29th 2009 13:38

omg, I almost fell out of the chair there... LOL My brother is building a cal look, and I'm building a GL, so true...

Wally May 30th 2009 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve C (Post 69910)
Hi Wally

Very impressive. You don't have much room to stop at the end of the track, lucky your car is a German look and not a Cal look.

Steve

Thanks, yes good brakes get more and more important when you go faster through the traps. At speeds over 110 you notice it very well.
Some of the guys made some more cool pics there:

http://www.mijnalbum.nl/GroteFoto-QUHPMAYN.jpg

http://www.mijnalbum.nl/GroteFoto-YWEFGNCV.jpg

http://www.mijnalbum.nl/GroteFoto-DMGLNMLH.jpg

http://www.mijnalbum.nl/GroteFoto-XMDO6CJ7.jpg

http://www.vwkever.com/evenementen/k...009-05_043.jpg

ferfre007 June 1st 2009 16:51

que emocion al ver estos Käfer!! increible!! unicos, hermosos!!

Phat73VW June 2nd 2009 02:38

Hey Wally who owns the Blue 1303 with Black rims( Porsche wheels maybe?) that was racing the same day? Are they on the GL forums? I would like to se some more pictures of it. I am debating weither or not to go the black rims route. :D

Wally June 2nd 2009 03:13

Not sure if he is, but that's Dean's car with a 2366cc type 4. Very fast as well.
Here is a pic of it, which you'll probably wanted to see as its sideways and you cab see the wheel well here:

http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/73263.jpg

Phat73VW June 2nd 2009 12:21

That's the one Wally thanks. That car was looking good on the track! As was yours :D You guy's have some sweet cars!!

kuleinc June 2nd 2009 12:38

I'm going the black rims route with my blue car... If it ever gets painted, and the rims ever find their way under the fenders... :rolleyes:

NO_H2O June 2nd 2009 13:57

Great pix Wally. Looks like a great track day was had by all.

Wally June 3rd 2009 13:50

Today I redid my intake tubing of the turbo inlet.
The turbo inlet itself is a 56mm outside diameter, but I only had 50mm silicon 90 degree tubing at the time I made the 2 ltr turbo engine and did forced that one on there...
I now finally found the time to get a 60mm bend 90 degrees and that fitted much more easy :) 57mm bends can be ordered, but 60mm was on stock and now the more readily available 60mm tubing fitted better.
So I got some drain-pipe 60mm tubing and 45 degree bends and started fabbing up the new intake:
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...3.jpg~original

I think the cheap plastic even isolates the high radiant heat from the engine better than stainless or alu intake piping. Its also lighter than the previous 2" stainless pipe and the 20% larger intake diameter has a wopping 44% more intake area!
I dunno if this will make a huge difference (probably not at 14.5 psi), but I do know its better to have the intake tubing at least not smaller than the turbo inlet diameter.

kuleinc June 3rd 2009 14:00

What a HUGE difference...

evilC June 4th 2009 06:34

Hi Wally,
If its standard pvc drainpipe then be aware it will start to soften at relatively low temperatures, generally around 60degC + at which point they will lose their structural integrity. I would guess the engine bay could easily get to those temps on a hot day, standing at idle after a hot run. It is quite common for turbos in the heat of battle to glow red hot so there is bound to be excess heat floating around. I would think that a stainless tube was the best material as stainless does not transfer heat comparitively that well. The luxury material would of course be CF!

Clive

Wally June 4th 2009 08:21

Good info and post evilClive! ;)

I agree on the stainless (what I had), but i cannot find 60mm stainless tubing over here unfortunately and really wanted to open up the intake NOW!
Maybe some heat-wrap will keep things at a safe level a bit longer.
Alu is too well conducting imo and I cannot weld it together..hence the hard plastic. Most OEM manufactors also use some sort of plstic for intakes and what more under the hood afaik.

Tnx,
Walter

evilC June 4th 2009 09:32

I would have thought that the stainless exhaust fabricators would have 60mm in stock? I was talking to a fabricator in Nottingham about my 500E that has a 65mm pipe in the mid section and there were no supply problems with that size. I have in the past has stainless exhaust pipes delivered mail order - is that an option?

Clive

Wally June 7th 2009 15:36

Yes, it woud certainly be an option, but I 'tested' the drain pipe today on a track day and went pretty much all out and it never melted or collapsed or anything. Oil never even got hotter than 90 degrees Celcius!

Engine ran very well and it was a blast. Clip is form driving onto the track with the other participants:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaQOS...e=channel_page

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...uni2009003.jpg
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...1.jpg~original
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...uni2009015.jpg
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...uni2009017.jpg
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...4.jpg~original
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...6.jpg~original

Sorry for the overload of pics of my car...

Steve C June 7th 2009 20:22

Wally

I love looking at pictures of you car, keep them coming.

Steve

Scotts73SB June 7th 2009 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally (Post 70068)

Sorry for the overload of pics of my car...

Dont be sorry.. awesome pics and loved the car since day 1.. that blue one with the black wheels is sure mean lookin too! Awesome stuff!

Wally June 8th 2009 03:28

Tnx Steve, Scott!
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scotts73SB (Post 70079)
. that blue one with the black wheels is sure mean lookin too!

It sure went like stink too. Its pretty light and with the 103x71, 44IDF engine it was right on my tail for quite some time. Pity his fuel pump cavitated or s/th as it would not pump fuel after a few laps.
Quite a few people at the track were amazed how fast our bugs went. Priceless :D

chug_A_bug June 8th 2009 04:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally (Post 70084)
Quite a few people at the track were amazed how fast our bugs went. Priceless :D

And that's why, I bet 90 % of us build these kinda cars... :D
I know I do:lmao:
Chris.

Humble June 8th 2009 20:13

Lookin' good! We need more in car footage :D I love racing in a beetle for the fact that people don't expect it to be quick. I've picked up a couple of stickers for the back of my track car that play on that idea. The first says "Never get stuck behind a vw" and the second says "Pass me with a smile"

evilC June 9th 2009 06:53

You lot haven't been watching Herbie films over the last three decades then???????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Clive

Humble June 9th 2009 12:58

That's hollywood, I want the real mccoy!


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