Newbie Looking For Input For a Great Handling GL

[VWCoupet]

I am now ready to resume work on my '72 1302. (Health problems forced me to shelve the body-off project for quite sometime.)

Though I would like to be able to put in a Porshce or Berg 5 spd gearbox and a Type IV motor, I shan't for the moment. I require a friendly daily driver that can pass Emissions. (In addition, fitment of a 5 spd and a Type IV are probably beyond my abilities and present budget.)

I am after a "sport suspension" (including a stidff rear end). I'll lower the car as far as possible and install anti roll bars (front and rear) as well as a strut brace and a new steering damper.

I plan on installing drilled and slotted discs on all corners.

I do like the appearance of both Fuchs and tele-dial wheels. I don't know if I should go with 7" x 15" front and 8" x 15" rear or just 6" front and 7" rear. I haven't yet decided on tires - 225/50 or 60 series? (I do need four new fenders so width here is not a problem.)

I will search out the appropriate articles on pan repair, suspension, brakes, wheels and tires. I welcome any input here in terms of what I should consider(including specific products) and what web pages I should be seeking out.

I have very limited knowledge, but with copious books and DVDs and lots of advice I am capable of doing most of the project myself. (The only thing that I am now thinking of having done is the body work. It requires heater channel replacement.)

I hope to end up with a great handling and good looking GL.

Cheers

[NO_H2O]

Sounds like you are on the right track. You will need a narrow strut springs on the front of the 1302. I have MaxxStruts on mine and they work well. If you search on this forum you will find some other ideas for narrow strut springs. A Kafer Cup Brace is a great idea for the rear. Again a sreach on this forum will give you info on that. VW Engineering has a great cup brace. Replacing your worn rubber suspension bushings is a must also.
Fitting the type 4 is not a big deal at all. The Porsche 5 speed is a bit more of a task. There are a few people here that have done it and have posted lots of info and pix.
Good luck and keep us posted.

[Humble]

Welcome to the forums!

As crazy as some of our beetles are as soon as you mention the P-word prices skyrocket. If budget is a concern, and knowledge is limited, keep things on the down low until you gain more experience. Beetles are great cars for beginning modders and mechanics to learn with. I'd suggest keeping with beetle bits for now because they're a lot cheaper and no serious mods are necessary.

Like N0_H20 says start with narrow front springs, stiffer rear torsion bars, and a cup brace. I say add a front disc kit or 4 wheel disc kit to your list early on to replace the stock drums. Also before you go crazy with a big type 4 build a mild type 1 (easy and very cheap) good for about 150hp and see how you like it. It doesn't take much to make a light car fast. Hopefully we'll get to see some pics of your progress.

[AIRSICK]

Hi and welcome!

I agree with Humble. My car is all bug stuff and it is a lot of fun.

I built a cup brace and added swaybars front and rear. I also went with stiffer torsion bars in the rear and good shocks.

I'm looking forward to seeing pics.

[wrenchnride247]

Welcome, You have a good starting point for a GL.

[evilC]

Hello, Good Day and Welcome.

Whereabouts are you based? that will give a clue as to local suppliers.

A key to the general principles of a good handling rear aircooled engined car are to be found with the bugs step brother, the 911. Many 'P' bits are transferable that can provide a massive upgrade particularly on the suspension front. 944 rear components are highly desirable and indeed 944 front legs can be added with the addition of the later '03 track control arm. Unless you intend to periodically adjust the ride height or run extra wide wheels (not good for ultimate grip or handling) coilover struts IMO are not necessary. As suggested a Cup brace would be useful as will a strut brace to add much wanted torsional regidity. At the very least change all the bushings to hard polyurethane of various shore hardnesses and fit good quality dampers - Bilsteins are a good choice. The overlying principle is CONTROL. If all the components are in control and working together then you can expect the best. If some components are squirming around then you will have little hope of getting the best out of it.
In what environment do you intend to exploit the handling? that will give a clue to the suggested package of measures. remember a circuit track day racer will have different requirements to one that is driven quick on bumpy, twisty country roads.

[VWCoupet]

Thanks for the responses. I live in Metro Vancouver (BC). My daily drive is about 30 minutes. It is a little freeway, a little highway, plus some farm roads and a wee bit through "town".

I do love to drive up to Whistler which is about a 2.75 hour drive and to Kelowna (3.5 hrs) .Both of these trips are a real challenge to a stock air cooled 1600DP. I also love to head down to Seattle WA and Portland and have taken the car down as far as Long Beach CA where I have some family.

If I got the car "just right" (excluding a 5 speed and a Type IV) I would then consider a larger motor and look into racing it at a road circuit course.

When I initially started the project I went through a couple of Keith Seume's books. This is what I came up with. (Please do comment.)

- upgrade stock rubber bushes to heavy duty urethane
- recondition ball-joints and replace rubber boots
- replace wheel bearings
- install Bilstein or Koni shocks
- swap the semi-trailing arm over from one side to the other whilst at the same time trimming off and swapping the shock absorber mountings so that they are now below the trailing arms once more (???)
- reset so that the wheels have a slight negative camber.

- on the front end - overhaul, i.e. replace each component that show signs of wear. (E.G. rubber bushes, strut inserts, strut bearings, and ball joints.)
- install an uprated sway bar
- install a new steering damper (Koni)
- install a pair of adjustable short struts and Koni (or Bilstein gas shocks)

The pan itself requires a hole repair. I will wire wheel it and clean and seal it up.

While I have such great access I plan to clean and replace everything that should reasonably be replaced and uprated. What should I consider here?

Like I say, I am somewhat ignorant of these things. I used Muir's book, the Bentley manual, and Rick's "Bug Me Video"(s) to get the body separated from the pan and to do the engine removal and tear down. This all went quite well and I was pleased that I could remove the body all on my own with just a good jack.

Despite (or maybe because of) my ignorance, I am happy to tackle the project. I just don't know all the details on what I need to consider. I need an overall idea of the complete suspension (including brakes, wheels and tires) before I set out buying and installing parts.

I do appreciate all your responses.

Cheers,

P.S. I will try to upload some photos this weekend. Here too I am somewhat ignorant. Gee, I hope that I'm not just "eye candy" and that there really is something more substantial going on with me.

[evilC]

Originally Posted by VWCoupet

Thanks for the responses. I live in Metro Vancouver (BC). My daily drive is about 30 minutes. It is a little freeway, a little highway, plus some farm roads and a wee bit through "town".

I do love to drive up to Whistler which is about a 2.75 hour drive and to Kelowna (3.5 hrs) .Both of these trips are a real challenge to a stock air cooled 1600DP. I also love to head down to Seattle WA and Portland and have taken the car down as far as Long Beach CA where I have some family.

If I got the car "just right" (excluding a 5 speed and a Type IV) I would then consider a larger motor and look into racing it at a road circuit course.

When I initially started the project I went through a couple of Keith Seume's books. This is what I came up with. (Please do comment.)

- upgrade stock rubber bushes to heavy duty urethane
- recondition ball-joints and replace rubber boots
- replace wheel bearings
- install Bilstein or Koni shocks
- swap the semi-trailing arm over from one side to the other whilst at the same time trimming off and swapping the shock absorber mountings so that they are now below the trailing arms once more (???)
- reset so that the wheels have a slight negative camber.

- on the front end - overhaul, i.e. replace each component that show signs of wear. (E.G. rubber bushes, strut inserts, strut bearings, and ball joints.)
- install an uprated sway bar
- install a new steering damper (Koni)
- install a pair of adjustable short struts and Koni (or Bilstein gas shocks)

The pan itself requires a hole repair. I will wire wheel it and clean and seal it up.

While I have such great access I plan to clean and replace everything that should reasonably be replaced and uprated. What should I consider here?

Like I say, I am somewhat ignorant of these things. I used Muir's book, the Bentley manual, and Rick's "Bug Me Video"(s) to get the body separated from the pan and to do the engine removal and tear down. This all went quite well and I was pleased that I could remove the body all on my own with just a good jack.

Despite (or maybe because of) my ignorance, I am happy to tackle the project. I just don't know all the details on what I need to consider. I need an overall idea of the complete suspension (including brakes, wheels and tires) before I set out buying and installing parts.

I do appreciate all your responses.

Cheers,

P.S. I will try to upload some photos this weekend. Here too I am somewhat ignorant. Gee, I hope that I'm not just "eye candy" and that there really is something more substantial going on with me.

It sounds as though you have reasonable smooth roads to play on but you will require a 'performance street' set up rather than a solid circuit one.

The quick and easiest way to uprate everything would be to source a whole 924S or 944 rear suspension and brakes with a pair of similar front legs together with '03 track control arm (or fabricate them yourself - I did). Don't get the auto box version as the driveshafts are different lengths side to side. You will require VW181 output flanges to the gearbox but all in all its a reasonable bolt-on procedure with much less fabbing than Keith Seume's suggestions. Plus you will get top spec for possibly less money. I managed to get a whole 924S undercarriage for £65 + 928 rear calipers (£140) + a Spax PSX suspension (£328). In fabbing the track control arm you could consider a compression strut that would allow you to add caster adjustability and anti-dive as well as taking the weak link IMO of having the anti-roll bar controlling the fore and aft movement. The fabricated track control arm then allows you to use the bolt-on 944 bottom ball joint that makes maintenance much less of a headache.

The 924S/944 route gives you:
Alloy fully adjusable suspension arms (camber and toe in)
23.5 mm uprated torsion bars
Possibly a 14mm anti-roll bar
Big CVs and driveshafts
290mm rear discs
280mm front discs
Big single pot front calipers
Big fully adjustable struts

As regards KS's suggestions:
The bushes need the hardest ones (85%+ shore) for the suspension bushes and 80% elsewhere (beware Californian ones as they are not suited to the cooler climes - need to be self lubricating)
Agreed
Agreed
Agreed
Swapping the trailing arm over is there to induce neg camber - a bit of fabbing + you are stuck without any adjustability. When they are swapped over the damper cup mount is on the top and upside down. Therefore it has to be cut off and rewelded the right way up.

Agreed.
I wouldn't uprate the front anti roll bar without considering a rear anti-roll bar to balance it

I note there is no mention of uprated springing. My suggestions are:
Rear 924S/944/type 3 std 23.5mm torsion bars. Increased spinging over this can be had with adding coilovers. Lower 40-50mm.
Front 100-120lb/in lowering springs 40-50mm.

The inner track control arm could usefully be lowered by 25-30mm to load up the front outer wheel more effectively.

If you stayed with the standard anti-roll bar configuration I would consider dropping the rollbar mount by 30-50mm (adjustable with shims) to increase the anti-dive.

[VWCoupet]

EvilC - thanks. I had not yet considered a 924S or 944 as a source. I will look into that suggestion. My garage is not that well equiped nor is my mind or hands. I do have a couple of shops and friends who can assist with the fabrication. My intial thoughts were to limit this type of work and to buy good quality bolt on parts. I will have to study your response in depth as I can't visualise everything you indicate. I am happy enough to pursue your suggestion especially as you seem to indicate that the quality of P parts sourced in this manner might be just as cost effective as, say, Kerscher parts on balance. What must be factored in though is the cost of having someone fabricate on my behalf.

I think that I could use a good primer on "suspensions". As I say I shall have to review your post in depth and google many of the terms and words that I don't yet know.

Cheers!

[wrenchnride247]

This may help with Porsche interchange parts.

http://www.vdubengineering.com/technical.htm

Lanner is very good to work with and is in CA.

[VWCoupet]

Wrenchride247 - thanks. That is a great link. I had not been to the site before following your link. At first blush it does then seem that the P parts are something for me to seriously consider.

I just had a look through Wayne Dempsey's "101 Projects for your Porsche 911". I now am thinking that I should replace the ball joints and tie rods (and ends).

Dempsey mentions installing a "bump steer kit" to alleviate the bump steer problem that is apparent after one lowers a car.("The tie rods are no longer at the proper elevation".) I don't recall seeing anything of this on any forum.

How do I check and make certain that the torsion bars don't need replacing? Or should I just automatically replace them?

Cheers,

[wrenchnride247]

Torsion bars are usally changed if you want a stiffer spring rate. They rarely "go bad".

[Jim]

Go for it...more stiffer rear end, more better handling!

As for the previous setups i totally agree!