Possible project (standard Beetle)

[oasis]

Okay, another possibility has caught my eye. It is a standard Beetle. My experience and previous research has always centered around the Super (1302 and 1303). There is a standard that looks awfully good to me, however. It is an IRS platform.

My very basic question is: What can I do to enhance the handling of a standard?

My searching has me awash with differing ideas that tends to be more technical than what I am looking for up front. I am looking for basic answers. If it surpasses my intimidation level, I may consider the car and will seek detailed suggestions when appropriate.

(If this belongs in "Suspension," I am fine with it being moved. Since this is general and I may add to it as such, I placed it here.)

[joeyd63]

lowering the car will lower the center of gravity and reduce body roll

thats a quick way to improve the handling of any car.

you could just add droped spindles in the front and index the rear torsion bars.

how well do you want it to handle? is this a race car or just a toy?

[chug_A_bug]

just did my whole 74 std and bilsteins are KEY same with lowering and urethane bushings all around...
and I nice set of sticky tires will help ALOT, my bug is like it's on rails NOW!!

Chris

[Wally]

Remove the stock front suspension completely and substitute for a Red9-design (whats their name again) or Mendeola double wishbone front suspension package.

Done.

[volkdent]

Do a Mendeola, it includes sways and with the IRS on the rear you'd be in pretty good shape.

Jason

[oasis]

Some quick responses ...

Race car -- no. Toy -- well, I guess, but I would say serious toy. (I did look into the rules for rallying.)

My Super was a serious toy. That was great fun. I can be patient to have things done right rather than just on the quick.

Here in the mid-Atlantic, we have three months where fog, dew, frozen dew, sloppy rain and (of course) snow dominate the weather. I had nice tires on my Super and they were great nine months of the year. During the three bleak months, I found the tires that were closer to stock as being better. That is why I included "rally car" in my description on the other possible project thread. I would probably want to adjust my set-up depending on the season.

Wally and Jason -- sounds simple and effective. That's a combo I always like.

Thanks to all for the responses. There seems to be more standard candidates than Supers right now. We'll see what December brings.

[oasis]

Originally Posted by Wally

... or Mendeola double wishbone front suspension package

I just looked at their S2-T1 chassis. My brain is now going at 8,000 RPMs. Wow!

[Humble]

Pricing on the mendeola setup isn't too terrible. I think it was around 3400 for the complete front end, spindle to spindle. Like everyone else says, IRS is key for the rear. The guys at mendeola say they're getting 1+ lateral G on sticky street tires with their S2 chassis design. More food for thought

[Wally]

Originally Posted by Humble

. The guys at mendeola say they're getting 1+ lateral G on sticky street tires with their S2 chassis design. More food for thought

Friend of mine over here measured that in his standard beetle as well. IRS, lowered, 7/8,5Jx17 so I am not too impressed with 'just' 1+ G
How much the '+' really is, would make it interesting and if it would really be MUCH better than you can achieve with original parts. For $3400,00 it would have to be imo.

[ricola]

constant radius 'g' would be more to do with the suspension loaded geometry and what tyres (& temps) are used. For me suspension is there to deal with dynamic changes which are harder to put an absolute number on

[evilC]

Originally Posted by ricola

constant radius 'g' would be more to do with the suspension loaded geometry and what tyres (& temps) are used. For me suspension is there to deal with dynamic changes which are harder to put an absolute number on

Agreed. A slalom test usually sorts out any evil handling motor and you don't even need a Moose!

[volkdent]

Its not even about absolute grip for me either, the feel is very important. It's no fun to have a car that has major grip but doesn't give you confidence. I was always surprised that an old Golf always felt more fun to drive than a similar era Honda even though the numbers said a Honda actually gripped better. I'll take some roll to "feel" a corner sometimes than to have a grippy car that's more on/off twitchy at the limit.

Jason

[judgie]

not a big fan of either the red nine kit or the bolt on wishbone.
red nine kit turns it into a coil sprung linked front end with all the vehicle wieght being suported by two towers designed to take just a shock abosober.
the wish bone fornt ends dont have long enough wish bones to convince me that they will be any better than a well set up beam front end.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by judgie

not a big fan of either the red nine kit or the bolt on wishbone.

the wish bone fornt ends dont have long enough wish bones to convince me that they will be any better than a well set up beam front end.

Very surprised you say that. The wish bones don't have to be that long in a double wishbone set-up for them to work their magic adjusting caster as they move up and down.
I think the Mendeola double wish bone set-up is miles better then the ball-joint bug front suspension.

[evilC]

Originally Posted by Wally

Very surprised you say that. The wish bones don't have to be that long in a double wishbone set-up for them to work their magic adjusting caster as they move up and down.
I think the Mendeola double wish bone set-up is miles better then the ball-joint bug front suspension.

I agree with Rob. Short wishbones mean that for relatively small movements the geometry can change excessively. Longer wishbones operate over a smaller angular movement keeping camber under greater control. Also the reaction at the pivot points on longer wishbones is much les than with their shorter cousins meaning that flexible pivots like poly bushes have much less to do and the heim joints last longer.

I also agree you Wally, that the Mendeola double wishbone set up is infinitely better than twin trailing arms but also much better than Red9's design.

Clive