Possible project (standard Beetle)

[oasis]

I love the ongoing banter with the compare and contrast with you guys who know the technical stuff. I'm sponging as much info as I can.

There's another Mendeola thread I had not seen until today. It includes an interesting Samba link. Well, the first page was interesting. I'll read the other 18 when I have time.

Embedded here is the link to the Mendeola page.

Without derailing the above discussion, what does everyone think of the rear set-up?

Also, the price difference between the front and the rear is noticeably lower than the complete chassis. Is setting up for their transaxle that complicated to warrant such a price? Would that total set-up be necessary if one were to get a custom Rancho transaxle?

I know I could ask Mendeola, and at some point I might, but I like the unbiased take everyone here has -- even if not always in agreement.

[judgie]

The main point i was trying to say is that IMHO you would be far better of spending your money on getting the stock set up working ot its best rather than spending money on somthing i really dont see as a improvement.
I see folk spending a lot of money on things that dont improve the performance on the car just becuase it should improve it, does not allways mean it will. yes with a day at the track and a stop watch you could well get better results from the wish bone front end but it will take somone who really knows how to drive and somone who knows how to set a car up to get the best results form it. The stock beam front end is very good and good results can be had with very little mods done to it.
Unless your in a unlimted race class and you are running at the front i think the money would be better spent on wheels and tyres, even with perfect suspension unless you have the bits that actuly make contact with the ground being the best that they can be you wont get results.
How much differant is the wieght of the wishbone front end? we allready have a light front end with the heavy beam, losing more wieght from the front i can see a lot more understear and the change in front rear balance would be hard to adjust for.

[evilC]

Originally Posted by judgie

The main point i was trying to say is that IMHO you would be far better of spending your money on getting the stock set up working ot its best rather than spending money on somthing i really dont see as a improvement.
I see folk spending a lot of money on things that dont improve the performance on the car just becuase it should improve it, does not allways mean it will. yes with a day at the track and a stop watch you could well get better results from the wish bone front end but it will take somone who really knows how to drive and somone who knows how to set a car up to get the best results form it. The stock beam front end is very good and good results can be had with very little mods done to it.
Unless your in a unlimted race class and you are running at the front i think the money would be better spent on wheels and tyres, even with perfect suspension unless you have the bits that actuly make contact with the ground being the best that they can be you wont get results.
How much differant is the wieght of the wishbone front end? we allready have a light front end with the heavy beam, losing more wieght from the front i can see a lot more understear and the change in front rear balance would be hard to adjust for.

If you're going to put limits on cost, who drives and who sets it up I'm not playing any more!

What you say is very true but I would love to have a go at building a space frame bug with double wishbones front and rear with monoshock front and horizontal coilovers on the rear with bell cranks.................(its a lottery project)

[oasis]

Originally Posted by judgie

The main point i was trying to say is that IMHO you would be far better of spending your money on getting the stock set up working ot its best rather than spending money on somthing i really dont see as a improvement.

Ouch. If that's the case, then maybe my search should stay narrowly focused on a Super if it's a bug. I know what I had, and that was taking a fairly pedestrian route.

[coolrydes]

Hello, Kevin "Coolrydes" Zagar here.

I've been racing with the P.C.A (Porsche club of America) for 15+ years and have been an instructor with them for 13+ years teaching other how to drive faster. Judgie has a point, however he does not understand how much a true chassis can help even the beginner.
When I started building our Subaru 6 cylinder powered Meyers Manxters for Mendeola with over 300hp I quickly found that a standard VW chassis no matter how many performance trick we did to it would simply not do. The cars were fast and even with my abaility to drive fast cars we could not get them to turn. They understeered like crazy. Understeer is when you turn the steering and the car still wants to go straight. We originaly developed our chassis for these cars, but after driving the first car and feeling the true performance and reide quality I knew one thing. These had to be made availible for any type one based vehicle. I've been into Germann cars for years and have owned over 70 VWs in the last 20 years.

If you guys would like to ask questions or would to just like to understand more about suspension feel free to post up in here, email, or call me.

untill then keep VWs alive .

[Wally]

You mentioned you developed the Mendeola chassis for the Manx buggy mainly because of huge understeer problems?
Wouldn't the even worse weight balance of a buggy not be a main cause or main contributing factor of that?
Double triangled suspension will always be better 99% of the cases, no question, but adressing the weight balance might give an near equally big inprovement I suppose?

Tnx,
Walter

[coolrydes]

Originally Posted by Wally

You mentioned you developed the Mendeola chassis for the Manx buggy mainly because of huge understeer problems?
Wouldn't the even worse weight balance of a buggy not be a main cause or main contributing factor of that?
Double triangled suspension will always be better 99% of the cases, no question, but adressing the weight balance might give an near equally big inprovement I suppose?

Tnx,
Walter

Walter,
Your right in your understanding of weight balance and that was one of the first things we tried with the VW chassis after adding and performing every trick we could to the beam style chassis. We moved the battery to the front spare tire area, we even put a largest battery we could find up front. Then came lead plates as a final attempt. After that we knew we would have to start from scratch.

With our chassis we are able to control camber and caster. Both are very importain when trying to get a car to bite when going into a turn. If you look at most modern day performance suspensions of new sports cars you'll notice camber is anywhere from a half a degree and up, both front and even more so in the rear. There are other factors like dive, body roll, and center of gravity to take into consideration, however for the sake of these forums lets keep it simple. I don't think anyone wants to turn this into a suspension engineering thread.. Lets face it our beloved VWs were never ment to go fast, much less turn at any speed faster then a person can walk. So trying to make an early VW handle is something that is not possible with a beam suspension.

[spannermanager]

It certainly is possible to make a beam equipped car handle, I've built and raced them all over the years, from standards to '02's to my 1303 turbo with 4x4 transmission, differing disciplines also, Porsche challenge, GP Midgets on ovals, on grass, tarmac, whatever, so i know what handling is, but I'm now playing with a beam again, just for fun and because i can, and it happened to be in my garage, it blows off enough 'sports cars', or' super cars', to the point where it amazes myself, and more importantly the owners off these cars. we all know about the theoretical shortfalls of the beam, but in real world terms, they are meaningless, my beam is nowhere near full on as i have rules to comply with, so it wont control a ten inch slick, but in my world, there are no 10 inch slicks because they're illegal, so all it has to do is be the quickest bug, and it is still a bug, once its all Porsche, or whatever, where you gonna go next? its not a bug anymore so whats the point? Be in no doubt, its short sighted to say a beamer cant handle, i will have data logged figures this season, so i cant wait, but i don't have to back it up, i already have, come and catch me! bring it on guys, further, if i do fit double whishbones, i will race with moslers, Porsches and ferrarays, i'll still beat them but it wont be as much fun..