The Apfelbeck Project (Serious T4 engineering)

[Frank]

Hi everyone,

I found website on a type 4 engine project that will probably interest all of the T4 nuts on this forum. This is called the Apfelbeck Project, some engineers are planning on making a overhead cam type 4 engine. There is a lot of details about their project along with fully animated 3D pictures of their engine heads. Check this out!! They even planned 4 test engines that will be used in application such as street and autocross racing (4WD!).


http://www.apfelbeck.nl/

[Panelfantastic]

One of those gents posts on here often, they have been teasing us with that incredible stuff for a while now! Look for posts by Wesayso.
I for one, can not wait to see a video of the test mule up and running!

[Wally]

Well, I can tell you its teasing for ourselves as well. Not everything goes as fast as you would like it. Mostly since everything has first to be thought up and than literally made from scratch.

Wesayso has posted here before on the project indeed:
http://www.germanlook.com/Forums/sho...ight=apfelbeck

This is the basis of my non-plus-ultra engine where I hope that the Apfelbeck heads will get installed:


Thanks for your interest Frank.
Greetings,
Walter

[Frank]

Hi Walter,

Is there a Scat forged Crank in your project, if so nice!! .

Surfing the net and looking at the Apfelbeck project some things caught my eye and I quite don't understand why it's done that way. It seems that each cylinder is going to have his own cylinder head, my opinion is that it would be stronger having a cylinderhead for 2 cylinders like on conventionnal flat 4 volks engines and the camshaft would suffer less from vibrations due to the running engine. It also seems that there will be a camshaft for 2 cylinderheads, one section of the camshaft will be free (outside in between the cylinderheads)? How many bearing will be necessary for the camshaft, what about its lubrification? Finally the whole OHC assembly is run by a flatbelt, as said in the guest book, drag at the rear of the car lifts up dirt and flatbelts plus dirt equals early breaking flatbelt. It would probably be more comvenient using a chain drive system instead (such used in porsche engines). It would be more compact too.

I'm not sure of that but chain and sprocket assemblies in most cases have smaller mechanical service factors than pulleys and belts.


Anyway, they are still in the early developping stages of their heads (based on a 70's design), they will probably encounter many design changes in their way

[Wally]

Hi Frank,
Yes, thats a 86mm Scat billet crank.
About the seperate heads: Look at the porsches you mention: all 911 engines have individual heads. Look at the Scat split-port heads: also an individual head per cylinder.
All design choices have been made very conciously and all pro and cons were taken into account. Trust me on this one. Don't worry about it. It will be awesome

Best regards,
Walter

[Frank]

Thats cool, didn't know that porsche had split cylinderheads!

[Wesayso]

I has been more than a while so an update has been placed on our Apfelbeck Site. Still no engine, Not even finalised heads but there is some real progress we thought was worth mentioning...

A teaser Picture:


More on the http://www.apfelbeck.nl/ home page.
We hope you'll enjoy seeing this phase and keep faith in us :? :wink:

At least it's a step up from our last update with that big sugarcube (lol)

[Wally]

Hey guys (or anyone that still is here ),

Contrary to my own expectations, the project does go on and I've put new energy into it
Even when most probably have gone other ways, I still very much like this project and am very motivated to follow this through.

I have contacted a local modelling company to help put these into reality, so I am now pretty confident in some castings in the next 12 months or so.

In the meantime, I'll have to settle for some of the old castings to test fit my own new test engine case, machined for a set of AA 98mm birals as I already wrecked the cast 98mm nikasils that were discussed here before

Still, these birals were good for 100hp per cylinder at least on the blown engine, so good enough for now




Are there still like minded fools around who find this at all interesting?

[Bad bug]

I am still around waiting on this to be completed.

[Bad bug]

What i would love to do is have these heads with a horizontal fan on the engine.

[effvee]

Hello, I too am here, hoping to see it finish. It would also be nice to see it being sold. So Walter, can you wet our yearning with something of late? Please let the inventor know to please continue. We are looking forward
Walter, I have three questions for you. (1) How large of cylinder will the head fit? (2) Will the heads come heat treated and cryogenically tempered?(3) What price range will the set cost? Lastly it's been a while, when will the product be ready to sell?

Please don't take my questions the wrong way.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by effvee

Hello, I too am here, hoping to see it finish. It would also be nice to see it being sold. So Walter, can you wet our yearning with something of late? Please let the inventor know to please continue. We are looking forward
Walter, I have three questions for you. (1) How large of cylinder will the head fit? (2) Will the heads come heat treated and cryogenically tempered?(3) What price range will the set cost? Lastly it's been a while, when will the product be ready to sell?

Please don't take my questions the wrong way.

I don't mate, no worries, and of course your last question was to be expected from someone anyways. I fully understand.
I had to make the decision to have them printed, cast or billet machined. After everything has been taken into account, I will have them cast after all, even though initial costs will be very high. Even (forgetting the new mold making itself) just the casting itself x4 isn't exactly cheap (probably just a bit over the current billet T4 heads now) but with casting it will be slightly more easy to see if a few more could be made. Casting might also prove beneficial to cooling properties (surface roughness, material maybe) and definately stays more in caracter with the history of these, which are cast as well of course.

Apart from the heads themselves, 2 custom camshafts need to be made as well as 12 alu ratio roller rockers (yes, the cams will be roller cams, i.e with very effective profiles and fast opening and closing possiblities). Then the whole camshaft drive system needs to be made with enclosure and all, which is the only other thing you otherwise wouldn't need.

I have no idea what it will cost me yet (as I haven't even asked for quotes on the above items yet), so I have no idea yet what complete set-up cost will be. It is therefore first and foremost a hobby project. Only if the first test engine runs and runs well, I'll start thinking and calculating what it would cost others ;-). I am very determined though! As I'am doing this 'alone' these days so to speak, so I can therefore take decisions for the project faster, but I also need more help as I am no machinist nor CAD designer. Stupid motivation is however the only way to get this done I think.

The best way is to first and formost have everything made for the first engine. Lets just wait and see if it all works as we think it could and if the newly cast heads really flow over 300 cuft/min as engine analyser says it will.

I hope (and expect) to have new castings within a year, if the ancillaries (sp?) can be ready then as well, remains to be seen, but making the other parts doesn't seem smart before 4 actual heads are ready and finish-machined to take measurements from, so the other parts will fit.

As with regular type 4 heads, the head stud locations will determine the max bore. Same with the A-heads. There is plenty of meat for larger bore and also even for slightly bigger valves then the 2x36 intakes and 1x42 exhaust I plan to use in the first set on the 98 bore.

And yes, after casting, I think the modelling/casting company asked already if I wanted the heads to be heat treated afterwards, so yes that will no doubt be done as heads get hot, no matter how many fins you use ;-)

[effvee]

Thank you.

[Bad bug]

Wally will you be doing liners as well or will you make recommendations as to which liners we can purchase.

[Wally]

Not me, but the other guys had one set of alu-nikasil cylinders made, but I have already destroyed those LOL!
So, that won't happen again and I am using ordinary cylinders myself as well.
Basically every cylinder should work when used and installed properly.
I have gotten a cheap AA biral 98mm set for the first engine ;-)