My 1303 just got a step closer to a GL

[Supercool]

Found these at a salvage yard yesterday and returned to remove and purchase them today.
I haven't been to this yard for quite sometime they listed the car as a 1980 "914". I knew that couldn't be right so I HAD TO go look. I put nearly 200 miles on my car to get these parts but I think it's worth it.


Turned out to be an 84 944
and now for the best part I got the whole deal, including the CV's and axles, for $200us

[chug_A_bug]

ALL I can Say is WOW!!
is that NA or Turbo Stuff tho?

[Supercool]

NA stuff
I forgot to mention that I got the MC also

[evilC]

Hi,
I can't tell on the photos but are the arms pressed steel or alloy? Did you get the adjustable spring plates with the eccentric adjusters? Are the driveshafts equal length (i.e is it from a manual stickshift car)? What are you going to do about the front end?

STIDUB's comments on the wing (fender) width are valid.

The 944 conversion is not a cheap one especially if you factor in new rotors, pads, seals (brake and axle), bearings, bushes, CVs and new output flanges to suit the 944 driveshafts not to mention altering/replacing the parking brake cables however, at the end of it you ought to have a new rear end. At 200USD it seems expensive to me but we are maybe more fortunate here on our prices.

Is the m/c the early 19/19 one or the later 24/19 unit. Whether you need to retain the beetle standard 19/19 unit or install the 24/19 unit will depend on the brake bias you have. The problem with the Porsche m/c is that it has an integral resevoir so it will require new inlet connections to suit the beetle remote resevoir. The 944 m/c will not necessarily be a panacea for improving the brakes and you may find the standard unit might be better suited.

Clive

[Supercool]

Arms are of the pressed steel variety
I didn't know the spring plates were desirable. I assume they make ride height adjustments easier, correct? Should I return to get them?
Standard trans/ equal length shafts. I also have a '73 915-02 trans that I want to adapt so I am not entirely sure there is an insurmountable issue with diff flanges? If I stay with the bug trans, bus flanges should be a help.
The front spindles should bolt up and solving the camber trouble should be relatively easy. Which only leaves the installation of bumpsteer kits to correct tierod angle. (I have done this same sort of upgrade on my Chevy Monte Carlo, on which I installed 12 inch brakes)
Rotors should clean up nicely, as they appear to have never been cut. CV's can be rebuilt relatively cheaply. Parking brake cables can be adapted with the installation of a kit from http://www.vdubengineering.com
Here in the states $200 is considered fairly cheap, remember the current exchange rate is 1 British pound = 1.6504 U.S. dollars, that figures to ~120 pounds.
Master Cylinder is a 24/19, I will try it first and if I don't like the bias achieved with it I can always go back to the stock 19/19. I am reading that the 914 and some 911's have a master cylinder that may work also. I don't recall bore sizes though.

[Humble]

Nice find! $200 is definitely a good price. For the MC you can take off the 944 reservoir and pop in the beetle plastic nipples and it'll all line up with the stock low pressure brake lines. The fronts will bolt up but you'll need the camber+ control arm adjusters from topline. Make sure you strip everything and give it a good once over before you bolt it on, it's a good time to rebuild anything that needs it.

[Supercool]

Originally Posted by Humble

For the MC you can take off the 944 reservoir and pop in the beetle plastic nipples and it'll all line up with the stock low pressure brake lines. The fronts will bolt up but you'll need the camber+ control arm adjusters from topline. Make sure you strip everything and give it a good once over before you bolt it on, it's a good time to rebuild anything that needs it.

It's nice to know that the MC will work out so well. It sure does make for a nice parts upgrade/interchange that Porsche used so many VW spec parts. On my Monte Carlo I used Impala front brakes and had to buy special upper control arms to fix my caster issue for ~$400.
Definitely will get Camber+ kit (Looks like <$60 US +shipping, way cheap compared to my Chevy) will +/- 1* be enough adjustment range? A complete rebuild is in the works for all brakes, bearings and CV's.
I would hate to use crappy AutoZone wheel bearings and brake rebuild kits. Are there any relatively inexpensive 944 parts available online or am I going with Pelican and letting my children inherit the payments along with the car.

[evilC]

Originally Posted by Supercool

Arms are of the pressed steel variety
I didn't know the spring plates were desirable. I assume they make ride height adjustments easier, correct? Should I return to get them?
Standard trans/ equal length shafts. I also have a '73 915-02 trans that I want to adapt so I am not entirely sure there is an insurmountable issue with diff flanges? If I stay with the bug trans, bus flanges should be a help.
The front spindles should bolt up and solving the camber trouble should be relatively easy. Which only leaves the installation of bumpsteer kits to correct tierod angle. (I have done this same sort of upgrade on my Chevy Monte Carlo, on which I installed 12 inch brakes)
Rotors should clean up nicely, as they appear to have never been cut. CV's can be rebuilt relatively cheaply. Parking brake cables can be adapted with the installation of a kit from http://www.vdubengineering.com
Here in the states $200 is considered fairly cheap, remember the current exchange rate is 1 British pound = 1.6504 U.S. dollars, that figures to ~120 pounds.
Master Cylinder is a 24/19, I will try it first and if I don't like the bias achieved with it I can always go back to the stock 19/19. I am reading that the 914 and some 911's have a master cylinder that may work also. I don't recall bore sizes though.

The spring plates are highly desireable since they provide camber (and ride height) adjustment as well as obviously matching the trailing arm bracket. If you use the bug spring plate you will need to re-drill it to fit the Posrche trailing arm. Re-drilling IMO does weaken the plate maybe not enough to worry about but the Porsche bit does resolve that concern. Also, the Porsche spring plate should come with the eccentric adjusters that that suit the elongated holes.

If you are using bus output flanges they will be the correct diameter but IIRC there is an issue with the length. The VW 181 output flanges are a quick fix for the standard bug box.

I never clean up rotors - it isn't worth it. To get even slightly rusty rotors re ground is around £20 each here with the distinct risk of extra run-out and a rotor that is then closer to the wear limit. Compare that with £43 each for brand new rotors and the extra £23 makes a lot of sense. Correcting run out on re-ground rotors puts them even closer to the scrap limit. Also, there is the issue with potential cracks in old rotors from unknown abuse that may not show up until re-ground.

If you are running 944N/A brakes front and rear then the 24/19 won't solve the problems with the bias. The plain fact is that the rear brake caliper is too small for the front. You will need to increase the rear piston area up to 2200sqmm/caliper to get correct bias with a 19/19 m/c and 1383sqmm/caliper for the 24/19 m/c (19mm piston to the rear, which is actually the wrong way round for the dual piston layout). The 911 m/c is I understand a 20/20 unit so is less desireable than the standard beetle one for best hydraulic advantage.

Over here I bought a complete 924S suspension and brakes for £65 (~105USD) that gave me front legs complete, rear torsion bar tubes and torsion bars, reaction arm, alloy trailing arm spring plates, bump stops, etc etc. The only down side was that it was off an auto and the driveshafts were different lengths however, I paid £50 for a pair of equal length driveshafts that now leaves me with 4 spare CVs. The quality of the suspension with new rotors etc is now first rate. I didn't use the 944 N/A rear brakes but bought refurbished 928S4 four pot calipers (£120) that gives me a rear bias, which is moderated by a bias valve.

Clive

[Supercool]

Originally Posted by evilC

The spring plates are highly desireable since they provide camber (and ride height) adjustment as well as obviously matching the trailing arm bracket. If you use the bug spring plate you will need to re-drill it to fit the Posrche trailing arm. Re-drilling IMO does weaken the plate maybe not enough to worry about but the Porsche bit does resolve that concern. Also, the Porsche spring plate should come with the eccentric adjusters that that suit the elongated holes.
Clive

I will have to return for the spring plates, etc. Should I get the torsion tube and sway bar as well?

Originally Posted by evilC

I never clean up rotors - it isn't worth it. To get even slightly rusty rotors re ground is around £20 each here with the distinct risk of extra run-out and a rotor that is then closer to the wear limit. Compare that with £43 each for brand new rotors and the extra £23 makes a lot of sense. Correcting run out on re-ground rotors puts them even closer to the scrap limit. Also, there is the issue with potential cracks in old rotors from unknown abuse that may not show up until re-ground.

That's ~$32USD to get one rotor cut? ZOWWIE! Over here I can get a rotor cut for around $5USD each. Modern machining equipment with a competent machinist at the controls should be able to improve on factory tolerances on most of these older parts. New parts that may be made with inferior steel are, in my opinion, an option I will reserve until my other options have have run out.

Originally Posted by evilC

If you are running 944N/A brakes front and rear then the 24/19 won't solve the problems with the bias. The plain fact is that the rear brake caliper is too small for the front. You will need to increase the rear piston area up to 2200sqmm/caliper to get correct bias with a 19/19 m/c and 1383sqmm/caliper for the 24/19 m/c (19mm piston to the rear, which is actually the wrong way round for the dual piston layout).

Brake bias will definitely need sorting after installation. It will all come down to keeping the rear from locking in HARD braking. What I learned from using parts from at least 3 different models of GM cars on My Monte Carlo was that the rear only needs to do a relatively small percentage of the total braking. Most “authorities” on these matters say 60% front 40% rear. I have found that as soon as you throw it into a turn or evasive maneuver 40% becomes way too much. Granted the Monte is weight biased considerably lighter in the rear than the Bug but I would rather have the fronts lock than have the rears lock causing me to spin uncontrollably.

Originally Posted by evilC

The 911 m/c is I understand a 20/20 unit so is less desireable than the standard beetle one for best hydraulic advantage

It seems to me that this would be a trade off of a taller pedal for less force and would certainly be a very subjective sort of decision.

[Supercool]

Originally Posted by evilC

The spring plates are highly desireable since they provide camber (and ride height) adjustment as well as obviously matching the trailing arm bracket.

Done!
Thank You for the info evilC. I returned today and retrieved the spring plates.
Makes the grand total ~220USD.
Still well under budget for my brakes.
Now if I could only find that running 914 2.0 I have been wishing for
Time to start rebuilding. My 915-02 trans is going to eat some $$$, the brakes will be a small expense by comparison.

[evilC]

Originally Posted by Supercool

I will have to return for the spring plates, etc. Should I get the torsion tube and sway bar as well?



That's ~$32USD to get one rotor cut? ZOWWIE! Over here I can get a rotor cut for around $5USD each. Modern machining equipment with a competent machinist at the controls should be able to improve on factory tolerances on most of these older parts. New parts that may be made with inferior steel are, in my opinion, an option I will reserve until my other options have have run out.



Brake bias will definitely need sorting after installation. It will all come down to keeping the rear from locking in HARD braking. What I learned from using parts from at least 3 different models of GM cars on My Monte Carlo was that the rear only needs to do a relatively small percentage of the total braking. Most “authorities” on these matters say 60% front 40% rear. I have found that as soon as you throw it into a turn or evasive maneuver 40% becomes way too much. Granted the Monte is weight biased considerably lighter in the rear than the Bug but I would rather have the fronts lock than have the rears lock causing me to spin uncontrollably.



It seems to me that this would be a trade off of a taller pedal for less force and would certainly be a very subjective sort of decision.

The standard 944 rear uses 23mm torsion bars that are the best for a road going VW IRS rear. Depending on the 944 model the bars may be 25.5mm thats getting a little stiff but worthwhile if you intend to primarily compete with it. Again, the AR bar is a useful addition and I have fitted the standard 14mm 944 one to our 1303 Super. You may find larger AR bars on the same model depending on spec but the choice of using a rear AR bar is subjective and dependant on what the vehicle is used for.

We all have our different price structures and certainly you wouldn't get the majority of our engineering firms to pick the phone up for equivalent to $5. having usually invested all the time and effort in sourcing good second hand parts I always replace the consumables to give me what I believe is a near to new set up - but to each his own. I always use good quality new parts including rotors that will normally be Brembo or Zimmermann (both are Porsche OEM). The metal quality and machining has been improving over the years. One thing you will have to watch with the single pot calipers at the front is that the pads and the rotors should be changed at the same time since as they both wear the pads end up tapered due to the slight rotation of the caliper (due to the one sided anti-knockback/adjustment spring) therefore new pads will not match ground rotors until they themselves have been ground in and in the interim you will get a long travel pedal and weak braking. Don't use such pads in anger as heat build up will not be even and you could locally burn the pads

The standard and thus the conservative brake bias on the bug is ~50/50 and unless you change the weight distribution completely or have specific requirements for competition that is what it should be. That bias accounts for the 40/60 weight distribution AND the weight shift under hard braking. Increasing the braking at the front will lock the fronts prematurely deminishing the overall brake performance. With a front engined car the weight bias will in any case be to the front and it is not unusual to have a 80/20 front brake bias to account for the weight shift under hard braking.

Porsche on their whole 911 series have always maintained around 50/50 brake bias even for racing so I would take a lead from the experts otherwise you could have little effective brakes at all.

[Supercool]

As I will be returning to the same place for parts for a different project I will buy the torsion leafs (I set them aside already, just in case) and if the donor 944 is still there I will get the anti-roll bar
Thanks again evilC. Good information is always appreciated.
Given the need for 50/50 brake bias, if I retain the 19/19 bug MC what would be the total bias with regard to pot size and swept area.
Are the 944 NA brakes biased with both the master cylinder and through staggered pot sizes.

[evilC]

For the bias to be 50/50 (ish) the hydraulic advantage should be the same front and rear i.e. the total piston area at the front divided by the master cylinder piston area should be the same as the total piston area at the rear divided by the master cylinder piston area. With the 944 or any other Porsche combination the front and rear rotors are about the same size so that any mechanical advantage is cancelled out, which makes the assessment easier. The stepped piston m/c does give an ability to adjust the bias but not much. The difference is that the piston areas are 529 sqmm and 361 sqmm, which is usually not enough to account for big piston areas at one end or the other.
IIRC the 944 front single piston caliper is 53mm dia (2809 sqmm) and the rear single piston caliper is 36mm dia (1296 sqmm) therefore, the front piston is 217% bigger than the rear that can't be moderated by the stepped cylinder because the variation on piston area is 'only' 146%. Basically, the 944 single piston rear caliper is too small for just about all variations of brake caliper on the front. A 25/17 stepped cylinder would work but they are not made as far as I know.
Whilst having the fronts lock first is the safe mode, if they lock too early then you will not see maximum braking from the rear.

Clive