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  #1  
Old May 16th 2006, 10:14
JefferyLawrence JefferyLawrence is offline
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Ultimate Porsche Brake Upgrade

http://www.jeffsvwshack.co.uk/944turbo/

Click the above link for full details.

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  #2  
Old May 21st 2006, 04:43
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Wally Wally is offline
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I believe that for this sort of sales advertisement, there is the 'for sale' section...

Its BTW not the ultimate porsche brake conversion...
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  #3  
Old May 22nd 2006, 08:37
fastdub fastdub is offline
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i assume 6 pot big reds would be the ultimate

but these would be pretty amazing for my needs
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Old May 22nd 2006, 15:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastdub
i assume 6 pot big reds would be the ultimate
No, they weight too much! and even more so would the matching rotors. The 6-pots are the modern 'mono-block' calipes tho, so at least they are a little better already

Just trying to say that bigger brakes are not always better.
The ultimate race or street car just has enough brake for 99% of all occasions and is as light as possible to reduce (unsprung) weight...
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Old May 28th 2006, 04:48
Typ Vier Typ Vier is offline
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Wally wrote :
(No, they weight too much! and even more so would the matching rotors. The 6-pots are the modern 'mono-block' calipes tho, so at least they are a little better already

Just trying to say that bigger brakes are not always better.
The ultimate race or street car just has enough brake for 99% of all occasions and is as light as possible to reduce (unsprung) weight...)

I think you should look at the weight of the original Beetle brake components first before making such a statement.
The original Beetle ATE caliper weighs 2900gr where as the Porsche 996 GT3 6 piston caliper weighs 3750 gr, thats only 850gr heavier.
O.k. the discs of a Beetle/Ghia have only 6400gr compared to the 9500gr GT3 units , but add these numbers up and you will find the weight gain at the front axle is only about 8 kilos.
Every brake upgrade will add weight no matter what you do but the Porsche components will at least have enough brake for 100% of all occasions no matter how big your engine or how hard your driving style will be.
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Old May 28th 2006, 07:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Typ Vier
I think you should look at the weight of the original Beetle brake components first before making such a statement.
Presuming that I didn't isn't trustfull either

My alu 944 turbo Cup 4-pot caliper weighs twice a much as a original steel bug one...

"The ultimate" brakes should be just enough for all situations. Then you have less overall weigth at all situations and less unsprung weight as compared to overkill brakes...

Like I said: too large brake components hurt performance overall...
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Old May 29th 2006, 04:48
Typ Vier Typ Vier is offline
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The weight of the 6 pot 996`s is just 3750 gr and the standard Beetle caliper is 2900 gr. Checked the 996 caliper brand new off the shelf on the scale. Don`t know the weight of the 4 pots but I presume they should be a little lighter. Will see tomorrow and update weight if 4 pots are in stock.
PORSCHE brake mods have been carried out since the 50`s and the biggest available brakes were fitted to Beetles back then, going through until today. PORSCHE brakes have become bigger and Beetles were outfitted with them no matter how big they were.
No one cared if the unspung weight increased as the added safety was needed for high speed Autobahn driving.
My 57 (IRS,Typ 4) had several brake fade problems with normal beetle discs and calipers when driving through the Spessart A3 part.
It is hard when decelerating from 200+Km/h several times sometimes downhill with normal beetle discs and calipers, however they are good for around town driving.
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Last edited by Typ Vier; May 29th 2006 at 05:12.
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  #8  
Old May 29th 2006, 07:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Typ Vier
PORSCHE brake mods have been carried out since the 50`s and the biggest available brakes were fitted to Beetles back then, going through until today. PORSCHE brakes have become bigger and Beetles were outfitted with them no matter how big they were.
No one cared if the unspung weight increased as the added safety was needed for high speed Autobahn driving.
My 57 (IRS,Typ 4) had several brake fade problems with normal beetle discs and calipers when driving through the Spessart A3 part.
It is hard when decelerating from 200+Km/h several times sometimes downhill with normal beetle discs and calipers, however they are good for around town driving.
You still missing my point We are all convinced here that the stock brakes aren't enough on performance bugs. No one maybe more than me!
However., the issue at hand is that TOO big a brake isn't helpfull anymore after a certain point on a car as light as a bug: then it only weights more and that hurts performance overall.

Besides, there are 4-pot and 4-pots...Mine are the radially mounted ones which need a 32mm thick steel disk. The disk alone is like lead. Caliper weights around 5 kg!
3-pots need very large diameter disks too boot. Total weight is just not the alu caliper, but the whole thing together: caliper, pads disks. It adds up really fast, especially with big wheels (16/17 x 7/8J, which also can add up to 7 kg per wheel!! Thats rim+tire and yes, I have weighted several of those as well (before you question that as well).
When performance is sought, these things need to be looked at. Again, bigger is definately not better after a certain point.
More weight can hurt more than less performance. Think about it if you will...

Its the perfect balance of gained performance versus the added weight that is what we should be looking for. Not just finding the biggest baddest calipers out there for looks sake...

Walter
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  #9  
Old May 30th 2006, 05:59
Typ Vier Typ Vier is offline
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Missing a point? Car manufacturers are reducing unsprung weight just about every model change when they can, this is nothing new. Just look at all late model VOLKSWAGEN`s and check the amount of aluminium used in suspension and brake parts today.
PORSCHE brakes are increasing the unsprung weight and so will every other brake upgrade, this is certainly not an advantage but the safety aspect is more important
The point is the ultimate PORSCHE brake upgrade is the GT3 6pot if you like it or not. Disc size and piston diameter is the biggest. Only the Cayenne Turbo S discs have the same diameter, however the piston diameter in the Cayenne caliper is smaller. And if you want to reduce unsprung weight fit ceramic discs as they are lighter.
If you are fitting these brakes to a beetle you will have to set them up for it, they are way too big for the vehicle weight and it will make the car hard to control when braking.
Everybody has its own preferences, I like the 993 and 944 turbo brakes too, but it comes back to availability and affordability for each individual.
If someone offers you a complete set of 996/997 GT3 brakes for a bargain price, would you say no to them because they increase the unsprung weight
As for the wheels, every upgrade will increase the weight.
If you want to stay on the road, you have to fit wider rims and tyres.
Try to accept it and not turn this into another STF .
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Old May 30th 2006, 08:24
kleinporsche kleinporsche is offline
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I don't want to het between you to but there seems to be miscomprehension somewhere. It looks like a personnal affair. You can both have 2 differant opinions and we all need to respect that. Typ Vier, I understand your point in terms of possibilities: yes the biggest calipers you can fit on a bug is the 6 pot cayenne S , or 6 pot from the carrera GT for that matter! But as you said it your self, no bugs need that much braking. And here comes Wally's argument: we don't need the extra weight of the extra pistons and the weight of the extra disc size. Plus, I imagine it is a hell to set up to avoid locking up the brakes. Wally's argument is directed toward compromise (balance) between weigth and performance: I you put too much in the performance part of the equation, you hurt the overall car performance.

For example, I've seen a tv program a while ago on car tuning in general. What ingeneers recommand in terms of wheels is never go over +2 in terms of wheel diameter. For the bug: stock is 15" so max should be 17". Afterward, it is too heavy for nothing and you start having a hardtime cornering. They did a timed slalom course: stock, +2 upgrade and +3. The car with +2 did a better time than stock, but the car with +3 upgrade did worst than stock!!!

Sometimes bigger is not better...

Last edited by kleinporsche; May 30th 2006 at 08:40.
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  #11  
Old May 31st 2006, 00:39
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Bebobug Bebobug is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kleinporsche
Sometimes bigger is not better...

So, very, very true. Without DSC & ABS having 6 pot calipers & 12" rotors will lockup prematurely & become dangerous to use on the street. But, if you use heavier rims this will help counteract this by making the brakes work more. The side effect to all of this would be poor handling characteristics due to the tremendous amount of unsprung weight but, for a show car this wouldn't ever be tested anyway. So, it is your choice of what you want to run and if it doesn't work, my car still runs
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  #12  
Old June 1st 2006, 05:28
Typ Vier Typ Vier is offline
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No problem with your statements, however the weight of the 996 GT3 brake is roughly about the same as the 993 biturbo brake or the one you refer to as big reds. The big reds are widely used in all types of beetles and is accepted as a useful system. One of my friends has the 993 turbo brake fitted to an 57 oval. This setup was fitted in 1997 by Eduard Remmelle and works very nice. While we`re at it, Eduard build a street/race car not that long ago with AP 6 piston brakes and 350 mm discs and no one seemed to question the size of the brakes or the added unsprung weight then

Anyway,the weight of the 993 351 045.10 disc is 9.2 kg and the diameter is 322mm.
The weight of the 996 351 401 9H disc is 9.5 kg and the diameter is 350mm.
The weight gain is only 300 grams per disc and although the disc is bigger in diameter, a new production process kept the weight down.

The weight of the 993 351 425.10 4 piston turbo caliper is about the same as the 996 351 431 91 as the manufacturing process has changed too. 993 calipers are more solid and use aluminium pistons whereas the 996 6piston caliper is built to save weight for the size unlike for instance the solidly cast cayenne 4WD caliper.
The housing is shaped around the pistons which are made of synthetic material similar to teflon to save weight again.

Setting up a brake system like this is not an easy task and will take a bit of dedication.
I have access to brake pressure gauges VAG 1347 x4 (take actual brake pressure reading straight off the bleed nipples)to determine which wheel will lock up at which brake pressure, a rolling road and can refer to close friends working in the brake development department at ATE in Frankfurt.
The correct master cylinder and brake proportioning valves have yet to be determined.
Again, every brake upgrade will add unsprung weight, and the 996 GT3 bake is definately overkill in a beetle, but it will not add a lot more unsprung weight than a 993 turbo brake.
I always preferred this forum to others as the statements and knowledge shared was mostly top notch and guessed anwers were clearly identified.
Other peoples comments were discussed witout trying to ridicule them.
After all, we share the same hobby don`t we ?
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  #13  
Old July 27th 2006, 02:35
vwdevotee vwdevotee is offline
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For just plain stupidly large brakes the ultimate would have to be the Brembo Gran turismo kits for various Porsches. 8piston front calipers, on 380mm rotors, and 4piston rears, with 355mm rotors.
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  #14  
Old July 28th 2006, 05:26
turboL turboL is offline
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Boxter brakes

Im running Boxter S discs and red 4 pot brembos alloy adapter brackets alloy porsche hubs and 18 by 7.5inch fve spoke Porsche rims low profile tyres, I weighed all this and compared it to the same stock components and was suprised to finde the porch set up was not that much heavier so I was happy to sacrifice some handeling for the extra brake capacity and safety .Some people say they are over kill,too heavey blah blah and in some applications Id agree and for the size of the car they are extreme but if any part of my car is gonna be over kill its gonna have to be the brakes!Doesnt matter how fast your car goes if you cook your brakes and end up splattered!We arnt formula 1 racing here guys 3 pot 4 pot 6 pot what ever works for you,I finde it hard to believe that you would need 6 pot and the discs are like fly wheels.4 fly wheels they must be sucking up alot of HP even on a heavey 500hp bug they seem over the top! I mean if you can afford 6 pots with ceramic discs go buy a Porsche! I was lucky and got my callipers with the half finished project I bought so I used em but it was a big job maken them fit. Remmele seem to be the leaders in racing car style components and they do 4 and 6 pot so they must work, so I guess you gotta go with what works best for your application . Big is better but there is apoint where its gonna start to work aggainst you not to mention cost you a small fortune
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  #15  
Old July 28th 2006, 13:25
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Panelfantastic Panelfantastic is offline
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I have got to learn to work this edit function...
Anyway, I agree with what was said above about using too much brake

All that being said, I LOVE the big brakes and plan them for my next project!


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Last edited by Panelfantastic; July 28th 2006 at 13:33.
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