Beetle vs. SuperBeetle!

[Astromic]

Hi,
I saw in other forums and articles that many ppl disagree about wich better, beetles or supers(in suspension specifically), many says that standards have good front and bad rear system and supers have a bad front with better rear, other said that beetles are stiffer on the road due to stiffer susp. so it handle tightly, and others said that the mcph front is better in handeling and the irs ofcourse is better so the supers are better in general...!!!

what do u think is the benefits that each of them have unlike the other in this criterias:
*steering safety and effeciency in general.
*low speed handeling and safety in corners.
*hight speed handeling and safety in corners.
*braking effeciency.
*time period of usual maintainace in suspention.
*the ability to handle a performance engine.
*high speed comfort in general.

from my point of view i guess supers(specialy 74 and 75) are more reliable and with a minor performance upgrade in the front mcph we will have a better suspension system with better stock rear irs...
what do u think and what is your own experiences with your cars in that?

Michael

[oasis]

All years are model years. All opinions are based on stock configuration.

First off, IRS started in 1969 (or 1968 with the auto-stick). Supers started in 1971. That is why all Supers have IRS.

Originally Posted by Astromic

what do u think is the benefits that each of them have unlike the other in this criterias:
*steering safety and effeciency in general.

Safety: toss-up through 1974. Both used steering boxes. 1975-79 Supers had rack and pinion.

Efficiency: the Super had a far better turning radius. The steering box Super was slightly better than the rack and pinion version.

Originally Posted by Astromic

*low speed handeling and safety in corners.

I'm not sure what you mean besides turning radius which I already answered.

Originally Posted by Astromic

*hight speed handeling and safety in corners.

Both are prone to understeer in stock configuration. Both can be modified. It is easier to modify a Super effectively.

Originally Posted by Astromic

*braking effeciency.

No difference.

Originally Posted by Astromic

*time period of usual maintainace in suspention.

The suspension of a standard Beetle can take punishment more easily. That is why they tend to be preferred for Baja racing. In a German Look configuaration (that is why you are here, isn't it? ), a modifed Super suspension will not need any extra consideration than any other strutted car. (All twenty-first century cars are strutted.)

Originally Posted by Astromic

*the ability to handle a performance engine.

No difference since the engine is in the rear. However, a spirited engine implies spirited driving. The fact a Super more easily lends itself to front suspension modifications makes it preferred by many.

Originally Posted by Astromic

*high speed comfort in general.

A Super hands down. But keep in mind, performance modifcations will reduce the comfort level.

These are general answers to general questions. There are plenty of effective German Look standards, Type III's, etc. because the quest for performance leads to modifications ... and any car can be modified.

[Astromic]

yes indeed, i'm talking about stock only, but there is somthing called development, as the vw factory did something for sure to take the model to the next year's level, and improve the car, but it's not like we should say that newer is better because there's some mistakes vw made like all other manufacturers...
from my own story, i loved my 62' standard in driving style, as it feels a bit tight in driving(the driver and the car are one peace from each other ), but sure i hated it's handeling performance and braking problems, it was not a fast ride, max 70mph and i feel like it will fly and starting also to feel like the tyres loses it's grip on the ground, my new 74' super could speed up to 85mph and still got it's grip, but i didn't get any far from that. both are stock, and i drove many stocks(super and standard) and did feel the same,...
the performance modification in both suspention system will definitely improve something , but if we add for example the same part(theoretically) in both models, i guess the super will benefit more from this add-on than the standard...

Originally Posted by oasis

The suspension of a standard Beetle can take punishment more easily. That is why they tend to be preferred for Baja racing. In a German Look configuaration (that is why you are here, isn't it? )

yes i realised that too, standard balljoint models are far more stronger than supers as i drove in offroad terrain many times with the 62' and it just want more but i wouldn't dare to do this with the 74'...

Originally Posted by oasis

Safety: toss-up through 1974. Both used steering boxes. 1975-79 Supers had rack and pinion.

then wich better, r&p or steering box in a super?
and if the r&p wins, i heared about success conversions in replacing the steering box with r&p steering system in supers wich doesn't have one,, is this a safe conversion or not and is it worth it?

Thanks' oasis for your reply

Michael

[oasis]

One thing I did leave out in characteristics when comparing a stock standard and a stock Super of the same year is a Super may be prone to more body roll when turning at higher speeds.

The r&p versus sb debate depends whether one prefers instant response over some steering wheel play at neutral positioning more (r&p) or if one prefers a slightly better turning radius (sb). The latter may not be that significant when comparing stock models but if one changes tires sizes, has a change in their track, etc., they may be decreasing their turning radius to a point they would like some of it back.

Personally, I have a '71 Super. It has a steering box -- and it is in very good condition. It is a blast to drive as it is. But all things being equal, I would still prefer rack and pinion.

Conversions are quite reliable if done correctly.

Are they worth it? Again, you have entered the Personal Opinion Zone. I will buy a '75 as a second GL candidate before I will convert my '71 to r&p. Those who have done it always seemed satisfied, however.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by oasis

The r&p versus sb debate depends whether one prefers instant response over some steering wheel play at neutral positioning more (r&p)

I never heard that R&P should have some play in the neutral position? My stock r&p doesn't have any play anywhere fwiw.
However, my experience with steering boxes is that those always have some play at full turn which is deemed normal for sb's as its supposed to be a design feature...

[oasis]

Originally Posted by Wally

I never heard that R&P should have some play in the neutral position? My stock r&p doesn't have any play anywhere fwiw.
However, my experience with steering boxes is that those always have some play at full turn which is deemed normal for sb's as its supposed to be a design feature...

Sorry. I may have worded that poorly. When I said, "... whether one prefers instant response over some steering wheel play at neutral positioning more (r&p)," I was trying to connect the bolded areas as being relevant. More simply, If you prefer instant response, then choose r&p.

I hope I cleared it up. That was my original intention.