GermanLook Forums  

Go Back   GermanLook Forums > Technical Section > Suspension

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old April 21st 2010, 14:51
Humble's Avatar
Humble Humble is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Boulder Creek, CA
Posts: 758
A call for camber plates

Okay, here's the deal. I'm getting tired of not finding a good solution for adjustable camber plates in North America. If somebody has some I missed, point them out and I'll add them to the ultimate suspension thread. Why this is so important is that typically lowered supers use modified rabbit struts that had the top of the strut shaft machined to provide extra room for the super beetle strut bearing. This of course means that of the shelf or adjustable struts can't be simply swapped in. What I'm after is a bolt on part that will accept rabbit struts with out modification, so "off the shelf" struts can be used. If I can find a set of plates for less than $250 its a bonus.

Now for anyone with cad design skills I have a special request. If you can design a plate that adds at least 1* caster and has 2* or more of camber adjustment please get me the plans! I have access to a low/high volume manufacturing facility with fully automated machining/assembly capabilities as well as full anodizing in just about any alloy available. I could do as few as 10 sets or 100,000. If there's enough interest I may bankroll the first batch, so we wouldn't have to wait for a group buy.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old April 21st 2010, 14:59
owdlvr's Avatar
owdlvr owdlvr is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Canada - West Coast
Posts: 724
Quote:
Now for anyone with cad design skills I have a special request.
Can you provide me with an example from which I can do some R&D?

...Review and duplicate, with your requested changes added in.

-Dave
__________________
--
'71 Type 1 - Rally Project
'58 Type 1 - I bought an early...
'75 Type 1 - Family Heirloom
'93 Chevy 3500 pickup - Cummins Swap
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old April 21st 2010, 16:31
Humble's Avatar
Humble Humble is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Boulder Creek, CA
Posts: 758
I could only provide the super beetle strut bearing itself. If I had a drawing I could probably modify it as needed. The problem for me is I don't have the time to work up a drawing from scratch. The goal is to get a set of camber plates for less than $150 if possible and I want to sell them for the manufacturing price.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old April 21st 2010, 17:03
owdlvr's Avatar
owdlvr owdlvr is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Canada - West Coast
Posts: 724
Alright, well like you I don't have endless time...but I'm interested to help with the project. Depending on the time frame we're talking, a collaboration towards the effort could get something done. If we're looking at a schedule of a couple of months, I've got the time to play around. The bigger challenge is that I don't own a super, and there is typically a lot more going on with VAG strut mount bushings then you might think. I worked on replacement strut mount bushings for B3 Audi's (classic failure part, OE versions last weeks). The strut shaft works on two axis of rotation, not one. Trying to solve the collapse problem resulted in binding with the rotation. Here's the prototype of the B3 unit:



To do this properly would require one of two options:

a) rabbit strut, super strut, rabbit upper mount & super upper mount (so all measurements could be taken, etc) and then ideally a car to view/measure.

or

b) A current adjustable upper camber plate that could be measured and have your custom requests added to it.

-Dave
__________________
--
'71 Type 1 - Rally Project
'58 Type 1 - I bought an early...
'75 Type 1 - Family Heirloom
'93 Chevy 3500 pickup - Cummins Swap
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old April 21st 2010, 17:42
Humble's Avatar
Humble Humble is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Boulder Creek, CA
Posts: 758
I can take care of a couple measurements, most likely the rabbit/super struts and possibly the strut bearings as well. Another way about this if I can provide you with a drawing (via paper/pdf) could you turn it into a cad drawing? Time wise I would like to get this moving fairly quickly and if possible get the first proto by the end of May.

I fully expect at least one or two proto runs before there's a finished product and I have the means to get accurate alignment measurements for little or no cost.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old April 21st 2010, 17:44
owdlvr's Avatar
owdlvr owdlvr is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Canada - West Coast
Posts: 724
Quote:
Another way about this if I can provide you with a drawing (via paper/pdf) could you turn it into a cad drawing?
Yup.

-Dave
__________________
--
'71 Type 1 - Rally Project
'58 Type 1 - I bought an early...
'75 Type 1 - Family Heirloom
'93 Chevy 3500 pickup - Cummins Swap
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old April 21st 2010, 23:13
randyj randyj is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 90
I would be willing to commit to purchasing a set.

Randy
__________________
Unix is a "user friendly" operating system. Its just a little particular who it is friendly to.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old April 21st 2010, 23:52
Bug@5speed(US)'s Avatar
Bug@5speed(US) Bug@5speed(US) is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 513
Humble,

Funny you mention this topic.. I have not had time yet since I have been working on the rear of the car as we speak in between life,work and kids..

I spoke a few months ago, with (Mark) from ground control.. regarding this.. I have not had a chance to stencil/draw and measure.. but if you have time you may want to run with it..

Here is what he said. Please send us a picture and a drawing of the super beetle top mount. The 3 and 5 bolt are actual;ly pretty large, and we have smaller camber caster plates that might be a better fit.

Their 3 and 5 bolt were the universal model..

Might be worth a try, and with minimal effort.
VR
Alex
PS I will follow this thread and see if I can help..
__________________
Alex Olaverri
Sales Associate for Bug@5-Speed (US)
Email: Bugat5speed@yahoo.com
Tele: 973 204-5463
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old April 22nd 2010, 07:43
evilC's Avatar
evilC evilC is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: UK Where Leics is more
Posts: 644
Hi Humble,

When I did the front of our 1303 super I used 944 struts and top mounts and all that was required was to drill an extra hole for the 4 bolt arrangement so in principle surely the Golf strut could work in the same vein? If so, then wouldn't the Golf camber plates also work?

I am tackling the adjustability of the front suspension in a different way relying on the 944/super standard camber adjustment methods on the axle and inner TCA bush and then using a compression strut to vary the caster. Whilst that should be a two unit operation instead of the single top mount adjustability it seems to me that adjusting either on my set up has little effect on the other whereas top mount adjustability can affect both.

Clive
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old April 28th 2010, 23:21
Bug@5speed(US)'s Avatar
Bug@5speed(US) Bug@5speed(US) is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 513
Clive, thanks for the pics..

Got me very interested in this option.. and as a result took some pics of my own to share..

Essentially there seems to be a lot of overlap and similarities between the 944 topmount and 1303 topmount.

Here are some pics of the 944 Strut topmount (can't remember the year or model, but believe they are NA model)



Here is the topline strut bar plate placed on the 944 to see the similarities.. The top bolts line up perfectly with the topline plate




Here is the beetle with the topline plate


This is the 1303 plate sitting on top of the 944


Some side/angle shots to see the similarities




Where I can see an issue, but looks like Clive has confirmed fitment, is the bottom section of the 944 topmount as its wider and does not come to a point. I won't have time to disassemble these struts till end of may and maybe check on the car to see how much space exists..

@Clive- Was there a lot of space left, when you installed from underneath? Curious as aftermarket 944 camberplates maybe larger.





NLT friday, I will follow up with the Ground Control Rep, and send him some pencil drawings/tracings of the beetle topmount, so that he can check against his inventory to see if something other than the 944 will fit the bill.. But drilling two holes and leveraging the 944 stuff, seems like a no-brainer.. added support.
I was initially concerned if the 944 units would be offset, in some fashion when compared to the beetle units, but this does not seem to be the case. I was concerned about added camber/caster in the wrong directions. The other issue that I need to check is that the two new holes are not to close to where the strut pops through.. as in that there is enough metal to have good structural integrity. .

These are the ones I saw on the ground control site, but there are plenty of other vendors.. These were nice as they had an integrated top spring perch.. Other options are 944 units that are topmounted, as in they get bolted to the top of the chassis, as opposed to the bottom but those are big dollar items.

http://www.ground-control-store.com/...924+%28Pair%29
Only problem, is that the 944 run horizontal in those cars, and when placed on the bug go vertically, therefore making them caster plates

Welcome any thoughts? as I too want to kick ideas around and keep this thread going..
VR
ALex
__________________
Alex Olaverri
Sales Associate for Bug@5-Speed (US)
Email: Bugat5speed@yahoo.com
Tele: 973 204-5463
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old April 29th 2010, 06:22
evilC's Avatar
evilC evilC is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: UK Where Leics is more
Posts: 644
Hi Alex,
A couple of comments:
The 944 top mount is a tight fit in the 1303 seat.
The extra stud on the front/outer is preciously close to the fold on the inner wing. To bolt mine up that include a 5mm strut bar plate I have to jact the strut up so that there is clearance for the nyloc nut, wind the nut on and then finish jacking the strut up. There is not enough clearance between the stud top and the inner wing to get the nut on when the mount is fully engaged.
The camber plates that ground control show look like thick (8mm?) alloy plates that IMO would fail on two accounts:
1) Their thickness + and/or the strut brace plate would be too deep to allow that front outer bolt through that will allowthe nut to be placed.
2) The whole thing relys on M8 bolts clamping that top plate in situ by friction. I can see that it could move in use particularly on rough roads. It looks like a unit for racing only as it will need constant supervision and adjustment.
3) It is generally accepted that the 1303 super requires a strut brace to stiffen the front to give adequate/better control. By putting in an adjustable top plate based on sliding the top of the strut in two directions you will have to slot or enlarge the strut brace fixing holes or dispense with it altogether (an adjustable strut brace is only adjustable in one direction). By allowing more movement for the strut brace you will have negated a primary reason for having it in the first place - to solidly secure the two top mounts of the strut.
On balance since you are probably unlikely to want to adjust the front suspension frequently and since adjusting the toe in can only be accomplished under the front it seems to me that having all the adjustability under the car would be more desireable especially since it leaves the stiffness of the body uncompromised

Clive
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old April 29th 2010, 08:03
vdubzack's Avatar
vdubzack vdubzack is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Near, Washington, D.C.
Posts: 177
Maybe Chris at Tangerine racing would just sell his plates only? Should not be too much to modify to fit.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg CompleteKit01.jpg (38.9 KB, 54 views)
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old April 29th 2010, 12:53
Obiwan Obiwan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Toulouse (France)
Posts: 32
Do not know if it is what you really looking for but have a look to what a French guu do (Flat4parts online shop) : Camber plates
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old April 29th 2010, 22:52
vdubzack's Avatar
vdubzack vdubzack is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Near, Washington, D.C.
Posts: 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obiwan View Post
Do not know if it is what you really looking for but have a look to what a French guu do (Flat4parts online shop) : Camber plates
Looks Great! But looking for a US Supplier. But at the rate the dollar is rising, soon it wont make a difference.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old April 30th 2010, 03:11
Obiwan Obiwan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Toulouse (France)
Posts: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by vdubzack View Post
Looks Great! But looking for a US Supplier. But at the rate the dollar is rising, soon it wont make a difference.
I dont think there will be a pb to shipp to US. If the shop dont want, I can support it and organaize the shipping for one or severals pieces.
The $ is stronger evry day against the €, but It up to you to dedcide if it is a good deal or not.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:12.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
© www.GermanLook.net 2002-2017. All Rights Reserved