DS Pump

Originally Posted by Wally

I agree on the latter tho I don't see the 'need' for DS in his application either.
In general, I think you 'overthink' the whole thing too much. From others experience, the DS - even with that
pump - works very well as is imho ;-)

Hi Walter,

Thanks for your reply.
We are trying to find out what is the best solution for my type 4. DS in my situation is not needed. I agree on that,
but is DS the best solution or not, and if yes, which part are the best and should we use? That's what is important to us.

Funny to read from your hand that Brian and I ‘over think’ it to much. If there is one person who will not affiliate anything
without hard evidence, it’s you. Others experience with DS and the Schadek pump is just not enough for us this time. We
want to know for sure. Let us just this one time.

Luuk

[Wally]

Originally Posted by skywalker

We are trying to find out what is the best solution for my type 4. DS in my situation is not needed. I agree on that,
but is DS the best solution or not,

IMHO, DS is always best. There are several reasons why you don't often see it tho. Complexity and cost are one and wet sump being 'enough' in most applications is another.
Funny thing is, the one reason Brian mentioned as a minor one: windage advantages of DS, is a pretty major one for me. IMO, the bigger the engine and the higher the rpm's, the more windage becomes an issue that DS can help with. I think the windage advantages of DS will give a few hp's extra as an end result (the extra gears cost hp first..)

and if yes, which part are the best and should we use? That's what is important to us.

Well, a rough guide is 'you get what you pay for'. Cost of different DS pump I have adressed in the earlier posts as you may have read

Funny to read from your hand that Brian and I ‘over think’ it to much. If there is one person who will not affiliate anything without hard evidence, it’s you.

Well, then that should tell you something No, but seriously, its just my opinion on an internet forum. For real info, ask a professional who's business is it to warrent his engines and backed up by hundreds of builds. I am just as a hobbyist.

Others experience with DS and the Schadek pump is just not enough for us this time.

Thats too bad. I regard others experience very highly, depending of course who's it is, but in general, I think theory is highly overrated and real life experiences of actual users count for everything in my book...
Therefore, I take for instance Sandeep's descriptions of his experiences very serieus and regard them as highly valuable, especially since fellow hobbyists like Sandeep have NO alternative motives (commercial ones for instance) to make up story's or tell it any other way than as it really is.

We want to know for sure.

Sorry, no guarentees when you build something yourself. Also, there are too many variables to be sure of anything when you are tuning at this level with some of these unique parts.

We both know what the person who designed your engine does for a living and what his experience and skills are. Then ask yourself this: when the person designing this combo chose these exact parts, you can either trust his judgement or don't and alter parts of the combo. If you choose the latter option, thats fine also but the question of wanting to be sure gets a little academic then in my book

Regardless, it will probably be an awesome engine anyways
Best regards,
Walter

Thanks again Walter for your comment.

Porsche and VW published a tech bulletin about notching both sides of the connecting rods in 914-4 engines as Brian mentioned. That’s in wet sump conditions! Is there enough oil in dry-sump set-up for i.g. the additional piston cooling? That’s what worries us too.

Originally Posted by Wally

... its just my opinion on an internet forum. For real info, ask a professional who's business is it to warrent his engines and backed up by hundreds of builds. I am just as a hobbyist.

We will, as a fact I already did. We will continue that conversation face to face on short notice. Anyway, we are also interested in the opinion of others, especially if they are hobbyists like you.

Originally Posted by Wally

We both know what the person who designed your engine does for a living and what his experience and skills are. Then ask yourself this: when the person designing this combo chose these exact parts, you can either trust his judgement or don't and alter parts of the combo. If you choose the latter option, thats fine also but the question of wanting to be sure gets a little academic then in my book

True. I know and you know that designing an engine like he did does not stop when start building. Designing goes on when building. If one of us is an hobbyist, I am. So I am very glad the help Brian gives me and I asked him to do the designing part. I am only paying and learning a lot these days.

Also, don’t forget the engine was designed for a beetle, not a heavy split bus. We both know the designer works a lot for customers related to race and cross. That’s his strength. My bus -when finished- would be happy on a race track I know for sure, but the chance the bus is going to see a race track is minor. It’s no wonder we look at the engine a little different then he did.

About being sure, you are right. There are no guarantees. Maybe I was not clear enough; I mend we want to be sure dry-sump is the best for my engine and my situation. That means we have to do some search and ask others at experiences. Like Brian mentioned he never build an engine with dry sump on it. For me that is a big advantage. Maybe weird to say so, but he is ‘clean’ in the way he is thinking and not going to let his course be influent by experiences in the past. (Experience are old solutions for new problems).

There will be a lot of opinions about DS is the best or not. For now –in my situation– I am not pretty sure it is, not even now after you typing “IMHO, DS is always best.” Sorry, I might be as stubborn as you sometimes can be. I appreciate you are sharing your honest opinion with us, but again it’s just not enough.

Originally Posted by Wally

Regardless, it will probably be an awesome engine anyways

And that’s what it is going to be! DS or not…

Cheers,
Luuk

[Wally]

Originally Posted by skywalker

Thanks again Walter for your comment.

Porsche and VW published a tech bulletin about notching both sides of the connecting rods in 914-4 engines as Brian mentioned. That’s in wet sump conditions! Is there enough oil in dry-sump set-up for i.g. the additional piston cooling? That’s what worries us too.

Your welcome of course. The more detailed problems are most fun to respond to

Your fear of the notching being different in wet sump as opposed to DS is one of those things I really don't get (part of the 'overthinking')? I mean, you do know where the oil for the V-notches comes from right? How would this ever be different in a DS application? To me this is really one of those 'non-issues'

Sorry, I might be as stubborn as you sometimes can be.

Ah, I think you know me already haha!

I appreciate you are sharing your honest opinion with us, but again it’s just not enough.

Thanks! but I also don't feel the need to pursuade you of anything. In the end you will have to follow your own judgement, which is what these boards are helping us with greatly .

[verbeekb]

Originally Posted by Wally

Your fear of the notching being different in wet sump as opposed to DS is one of those things I really don't get (part of the 'overthinking')? I mean, you do know where the oil for the V-notches comes from right? How would this ever be different in a DS application? To me this is really one of those 'non-issues'

Hey Walter,

I am not thinking that the notches should be placed differently. I am sorry if I wasn't any clearer earlier.

The thing is, if these notches were deemed necessary by both Porsche and VW in wet sump conditions, then, what kind of piston cooling/wrist pin lubrication do we end up with in a dry sumped type 4? I think that captures it better.

As for windage. I am aware it "eats" energy. So does the cooling fan, so does the transmission oil. The case of Luuk's engine is mildly fishtailed, something that seems beneficial especially with the lager bores. The crankshaft is not modified to reduce windage. In a Porsche 6 the hp gain from fishtailing and knife-edging is assumed to be about 10% (!).

Cheers,

Brian

www.karrera.net

[Wally]

Originally Posted by verbeekb

The thing is, if these notches were deemed necessary by both Porsche and VW in wet sump conditions, then, what kind of piston cooling/wrist pin lubrication do we end up with in a dry sumped type 4? I think that captures it better.

Hi Brian,
No, it was clear to me before you weren't referring to the placement of the notches

I think we're getting somewhere here tho: I think that you think that the wet sump is partly responsable for lubrication of the cylinders right?
Sorry, but that is really not the case imho (think for instance windage tray in 914 2,0 application). Its the escaping oil between the rods and crank flanges that takes care of it. That's also why the rod sideplay is so important. Too much sideplay there costs oil pressure to paint the picture of what happens there.

To capture the jist of it: your wet sump does NOT lubricate the internal engine parts! Don't worry about it one second.
The rod notching was also only advised late in the seventies when there were only those really heavy brick-type T3 Vanagon busses on the market. Before there obviously never was a problem...
Those T3 transporters were so heavily abused combined with high weight and poor Cw that the engine/oil and thus also the pistons got so hot, they expanded too much and caused seizing (cheap cast pistons) in more than one occasion. Extra oil cooling was to prevent this. So, its not about lubrication, but only about cooling!! The final solution of VW was better cooling by introducing watercooling (wbx) soon after...
That is my reasoning behind the factory-advised notching thing.

I have actually never notched 2,0 liter rods in any 2 liter engine I build and I have done many many miles with them and all had way more than the factory 70 hp. Last one had twice the hp...and no ill effects of the alleged 'neccessary' notching. Most of them, I have done many miles and again, never any oiling issues of seizing of pistons... but I have always had good cooling not driving a T3 at 100 mph on the freeway also helps

Like I wrote before: I think its a 'non-issue' all together in anything else than a stock T3, but you had to let me write it all down again huh .

Now, if I would ever build a turbo type 4 on a 2 liter basis, the extra piston cooling might be very welcome since turbo's make pistons very, very hot and lean conditions are possible very easy and very fast. So I want to try this piston notching someday to see what it does or not do, but I don't worry one bit that I don't have it for now

Greets,
Walter

[CLKWRK]

Porsche uses dedicated squirters for piston cooling on their later dry sumpped 6 cylinder engines. This is something I will probably end up doing next time my engine is apart, all you need to do is drill and tap a boss into your case for stock 911 sqirters, no rod notching needed.

Also separate oil squirters onto the cylinder head around where the valve springs meet the head are also welcome additions for head cooling 911 style.

Bryan