DS Pump

[Sandeep]

That pump is HUGE ! I'd really have to modify my BAS header to fit that puppy

I think for now the CB Pump will have to do. As soon as I get ready for the turbo, I will consider getting a turbo header built with enough clearance to fit a proper DS pump.

Thanks for the pic.

Sandeep

[Sandeep]

Finally have the bug on the road and thought I would give an update.

The CB DS pump has solved all of my oil starvation problems. I can brake HARD, corner HARD and accelerate HARD and the oil pressure hasn't dropped below 25psi.

I found an empty parking lot and performed some large loops doing about 30mph clockwise and counter clockwise .... NO pressure problems I will check the case oil level when I shut the car down and then check it again after it sits overnight to see if I need a shut of valve of some sort.

I have the Cup brace mounted and can peel the tires in first big time ! HA and no wheel hop ! .... its like driving a totally different car now ... one that I can enjoy and not worry about that #@$#@$ oil light. :agree:

I have to learn to shift that 5 speed ... I've grinded 3rd alot so far perhaps time to adjust the shift linkage.

Now to find a Drivers Education class !

Sandeep

[Wally]

Hi Sandeep,

Just a quick question about your pressure not dropping below 25 psi: is the mentioned 25 psi also the minimum pressure hot ( about 180F oil) at idle?

Thanks,
Walter

[Sandeep]

Wally,

I get 20 psi @ idle when oil temp is 180F. At speed (4000 rpm) I get 60 psi @ 180F. (20W50 Castrol)

Cold I get 60 psi @ idle and up to 80 psi as I drive to get it warmed up.

LOVE this pump ... I have no need for a shut off valve as my DS tank is mounted very low. After sitting for the weekend, I measure the oil level in the case and it does not even register on a stock length flexible dipstick that I have. :agree: My DS tank has a 10L capacity.

Sandeep

[Wally]

Thanks!

I was a little worried because of the small pressure side (21mm), as the original type 4 has already 24mm.

thanks again,
Walter

[rip]

Sandeep do you think someone could clearance the Cb pump for use in a type IV that doesn't have the riveted cam gear? but using a bolt on gear instead?

I thought I read somewhere that a lot of clearancing was needed for type IV applications, that the pump body would be to thin. Even though this doesn't make a lot of sense considering that many others have done the exact thing with regular type I oil pumps.

So I just wanted to see what you thought, think there would be a major problem here?


thanks
Rip

[rip]

Originally Posted by CLKWRK

I have a spare cb pump, if you want to check it out. I get my fittings at the parker hydraulics store, not sure how competitive their pricing is, but their products are top notch and they will make custom stainless braided hoses for hight heat applications (close to header).

bry

If I can use it, ever think about selling it?


btw I understand how the regular two stage works but CB looks like they really pack in those gears, plus the routing must be tight to have the inlets and outlets the way they are.

Clkwrk or Sandeep got any pics with view of the routing?
thanks

Rip

[danielzink]

Winter is coming and I'm looking for a project to get myself in trouble with.........;D

I've been looking at a dry sump system for a while.

It sounds like we have to modify the CB pump just like the type oil pumps we put on our Type4 engines - no big deal.

I have a Ahnendorp rear hanger and LA Perf. jpipes and collector.
If you look at these 2 pictures - can you tell if the CB pump will clear ?







Also - what the overall depth of the CB pump housing ?



Thanks !

Dan

[rip]

sorry to drag this topic back up but now that im looking for another oil pump was wondering if you guys can tell me how the CB DS pump is holding up.

thanks
rip

[Wally]

Sorry for the diversion, but I finally decided to get on of these:



36/30mm gears and with internal bearings!
I knew there were options...

[Sandeep]

CB DS pump was working fine when I was N/A, but now that I have the turbo, the oil pressure is a little low when hot idling (about 10 psi according to VDO gauge), but the oil warning light comes on sometimes, not all the time at hot idle. Castrol 20W50 oil.

I'm thinking this happens because the pump is feeding the turbo as well :shrug

I must say that there are no oil starvation problems with this pump at speed ... oil pressure varies between 30 psi and 50 psi depending on RPM.

Wally,

Can you give me some information on the availability of that pump ? What does TP stand for and is it a T1 or T4 pump ? Modifications to fit the T4 case ? Price

Thanks

Sandeep

[Wally]

Hi Sandeep,

Its a dedicated type 4 pump, so don't need any modification; I believe he even asked me what cam I ran because of clearance his designed my pump with
These are the same ones that were used in the old 'Käfer-Cup' W4 cars .
TP stands for Thorsten Pieper, the builder of those.
Here's his 'profil' on the bug-talk forum:
http://www.bug-talk.de/forum/profile...wprofile&u=159
This way you can send him a PM or email. His english is fine AFAIK.
Price is about half of the similar Remmele DS pump, but probably about
4 times the CB pump

Hope I have given you enough info
Walter

[verbeekb]

Guys,

Thought I would add to this topic. I am currently overseeing the build of a 100x71 type 4, 964 P&Cs, programmable EFI, DIS, Jenveys, Porsche 964/BAS cooling system and exhaust, mildly modified heads. The owner has a dry sump pump to go with it and this would be my first dry sump so I am doing my home work.

First off, we can't easily alter the shape of the original oil sump similar to the in-line and V engine guys with bolt-on sumppans do. That means the little oil that will be in the sump will be way below any moving parts. Porsche published a tech bulletin for the connecting rods, they should be notched for additional cooling/lubrication of pistons and wrist pin. I can see how this becomes even more problematic in a dry sump set-up.

In-line and V engines mostly have one or more OHCs, or at least a cam that is above the crankshaft. This will establish more oilflow in a dry sumped in-line or V engine than in our boxer engines. This still creates enough splash lubrication, even enough for the in-line and V engine guys to be wanting to reduce windage even more. Some go as far as to alter the oil return paths so less oil will find its way to the crank. Our boxers have relatively little oil travelling to the heads and most of it will flow back into the sump without ever touching the crank. The need for additional camlobe lubrication has come up here and there, so -expecially- because we cannot change the dimensions of the crankcase easily so its walls keep oil closer to the moving parts like it would in a 911 case. Additional oilers/jets for piston cooling/wrist pin lubrication are not easily fitted in a type 4. I only ever saw one case that had this done and it had an incredible amount of welding done to it.

This engine does not have a mechanical fuel pump or distributor drive, but those could be possible problems for others who are dry sumping with those parts in place.

I know a type 1 with additional sump will run considerably hotter (no exact data) when ran with an oil level upto about the original oil pick up vs. stock configuration.

We have the Schadek pump. I enlarged the exhaust ports of the pressure side to 11mm. This pump still does not make me very happy. I am leaning towards recommending a 2-stage Autocraft pump but any info/experiences with quality DS pumps is welcome. I am also leaning towards wet sump in this case. This is a non track driven Bus.

Any thoughts or data on this would be greatly appreciated.

Brian

www.karrera.net

[Wally]

Originally Posted by verbeekb

Porsche published a tech bulletin for the connecting rods, they should be notched for additional cooling/lubrication of pistons and wrist pin. I can see how this becomes even more problematic in a dry sump set-up.

Why do you think so?

This engine does not have a mechanical fuel pump or distributor drive, but those could be possible problems for others who are dry sumping with those parts in place.

Again, why do you think this is the case?

I know a type 1 with additional sump will run considerably hotter (no exact data) when ran with an oil level upto about the original oil pick up vs. stock configuration.

That seems very odd? again I don't understand this or heard of anybody with the same problem

I am also leaning towards wet sump in this case. This is a non track driven Bus.
Brian

I agree on the latter tho I don't see the 'need' for DS in his application either.
In general, I think you 'overthink' the whole thing too much. From others experience, the DS - even with that pump - works very well as is imho ;-)

Best of luck with the build,
Walter

[verbeekb]

Hi Walter, how are you? I was thinking of giving you a call on this one, but this works just as well

I don't -think- Porsche published a tech bulletin about notching both sides of the connecting rods in 914-4 engines, it's a fact. VW came with a similar bulletin about 12 years later I think. I have the original Porsche bulletin in my archive (twice) but as you know it's somewhat hard to get to The VW version of the bulletin also covers a change in P&C clearance and the elimination of the paper and alloy gaskets on the cylinders for all later model Baywindows and all type 4 powered Vanagons. I think they even came with a spacer to restore CR. The notches -three per conn. rod side- are needed for additional piston cooling, according to the bulletins of both Porsche and Volkswagen.

As far as the distributor drive and original mechanical fuel pump (which we are not using) are concerned: I am only saying that there -could/might- be problems in a dry sump set-up, lubrication problems obviously. I just don't believe that the addition of a dry sump pump and a tank is a complete and well thought out way of doing this, there must be more to the story. If no additional modifications are required then I would like to learn about that as well. There seem to be plenty of mods required in non VW engines that are converted to dry sump and we have very little room to do so (not easy to alter crank case dimensions, not easy to install additional oilers for pistons and cam lobes), but that does not automatically mean we can get away with it. One solution might be to modify the scavenge pick up so there will be more oil in the sump at all times.

The temperature difference between stock type 1 configuration VS Gene Berg additional sump, both running approx. same amount of oil, gave me higher temps in a few rough field tests, again, no accurate data, just an observation, this translates very easily to a dry sump set up, not a conclusion, just something to think about.

So far the only advantages of dry sumping I can think about is the constant supply of oil under -severe- driving conditions (if the tank is narrow/high enough), and the additional oil quantity. Assuming we will go for true full flow filtering and and external cooler, there are realy no other benefits (ok, windage issues perhaps, but that is of little importance in this case).

Overthinking the issue, yeah, you may be right on that one, but see, this is not a low budget project, it deserves the right attention and it is not my engine, I have to be more than just sure. This engine needs to be torquey, ultra reliable and will stay in that Bus pretty much forever, it's not a test bed.

Cheers,

Brian

www.karrera.net