Super Suspension vs. Standard Weight

[mattfaulkner]

Okay...here's something else. I've seen some guys running a coilover type setup on their standard beetles. I think turbonutta has them. Basically, it's just a spring mounted around the normal sized standard shock. I assume this gets rid of the torsion bars up front, and gives the car a semi-coilover suspension option. Anyway, would this set up, with an independent rear, beat a super? I'm not trying to defend the standard, just trying to look at all the options.

Superman: Those are some good points. I wish we had more head to head tests to go from.

[mattfaulkner]

Yeah, here's the picture. I hope the link works.

http://www.germanlook.com/Forums/att...achmentid=1224

[Pillow]

>Standard has torsion bars (0% of modern car designs).<

Hey now the 911 had torsion fronts until '89!... If it is considered a modern design, which is debatable in ways.

Or trucks! Lots of new heavy duty trucks still use torsion bar front ends... i think because it is the only way to handle really heavy load capacities.

As for the real question, I do not have a good answer either way.

Originally Posted by Pillow

Hey now the 911 had torsion fronts until '89!... If it is considered a modern design, which is debatable in ways.

The Porsche company tried real hard to hold on to the legacy (Dr. Porsche designed and invented the torsion bar).

Originally Posted by Pillow

Or trucks! Lots of new heavy duty trucks still use torsion bar front ends... i think because it is the only way to handle really heavy load capacities.

Yes, my comments were specific to cars. Trucks are made to haul loads, not take corners.

[vujade]

there is one setup for replacing the torsion bars on a standard
with a freemoving bar and coil overs in replacement of the stock
shocks... Alex was going to use this kit on his Split...

[mattfaulkner]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that coilover kit lets the springs do 100% of the work. No torsion bar. Are the shock towers strong enough for it though? I guess a cross brace would fix it. It looks like we need a showdown. Here's how I think each car would be set up.

The super:
-High performance struts (Maxx struts?)
-Bigger sway bar(front)

The standard:
-Independent rear (exactly like the super)
-The front coilover kit shown above
-Front sway bar
-wheel spacers (to match the track width of the super)

Is there anything I forgot? I know that more could be done to the rear. However, it shouldn't matter as long as there equal. The purpose of this test would be to compare fully modified versions of each of the two front suspensions, so equal tire sizes should be used. I think this shootout would be REALLY close. The suspension geometry may be a little better on the super at this point, but the standard would still have the weight advantage, and coilovers now.

Also, I noticed some comments on how the extra weight of the super made it feel better (less floaty) in the corners. Isn't this a downforce issue? Is there a way to get enough downforce on these cars to take the floatiness away...even in the most extremely weight reduced beetles, standard or super?

By the way, I'm really enjoying everyone's feedback concerning this topic. This has been very imformative for me so far. Thanks guys!!! I hope we can get to the bottom of this.

Originally Posted by mattfaulkner

Isn't this a downforce issue? Is there a way to get enough downforce on these cars to take the floatiness away...

Lowered suspension (to bring the body's center of gravity down) and a front spoiler (to stop the air from getting under the car).

[Bugscandrift]

Im not really sure which would beat either, but you know that with a good driver, a car can do some amazing things. I drive a super, and i do love the way it corners, however i have also driven a standard and also love the way it handled. Of course i loved mine better, its mine and its on coilovers, but i think that a standard with coilovers would be a very nice mountain road machine.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by vujade

there is one setup for replacing the torsion bars on a standard
with a freemoving bar and coil overs in replacement of the stock
shocks... Alex was going to use this kit on his Split...

Weren't there some failures of the parts where normally the shocks go and then these coil-over suspensions are mounted?

@ Joe: good choise on the '75 03
Just took mine out for a first test drive and with the now installed Topline sway bar and their urethane front suspension bushings (the lot) and boy does it handle. It doesn't feel scary anymore to drive 180 km/h (which is a scary thought also actually)

Regards,
Walter

[GermanlookT3]

Originally Posted by Wally

Weren't there some failures of the parts where normally the shocks go and then these coil-over suspensions are mounted?

@ Joe: good choise on the '75 03
Just took mine out for a first test drive and with the now installed Topline sway bar and their urethane front suspension bushings (the lot) and boy does it handle. It doesn't feel scary anymore to drive 180 km/h (which is a scary thought also actually)

Regards,
Walter

Does anybody know where I can get those??? I would like a pair for my Gl fastback! (coil over suspention)
Oh and I think It all depends on the Suspention of the Bugs. But... My Bug is a super and it out corners any modern car anyday!

[Lazarus]

hey dude i agree with vujade about the weight advantage in the corners. as far as straight line build a good strong engine with nitrous so if you plan to do some light to light its there when you need it .you know, the best of both worlds. the car handles in the turns, gets out of the corner pretty well and will suprise most if not all pretty fast street cars at the light. you dont have to win a drag race to get the respect you need/deserve , sometimes one good purge of the juice will scare away any would be threats .

Originally Posted by mattfaulkner

I'm not trying to defend the standard, just trying to look at all the options.

There is nothing wrong with looking into things and having a well planned project, that is the right thing to do.

There are several "debate" posts (here, STF, Samba, etc.) about the Super vs. Standard... but the [hard] thing to do [for an inexperienced reader] is to know what is fact and what is opinion.

Those "coil-over" shocks for the Standard aid the torsion bar front end, if I am correct because I've never really looked into that too much (being a "Super" kind of guy).


Basically, it doesn't matter what you do to the Standard front end, unless you widen the (front) track and decrease the turning radius, it will never be able to do what a Super does. This could be done with some wheel hubs and/or spacers plus a 'dune-buggy' type R&P steering rack.

Now let me close with this... I've watched many Käfer Cup videos and seen some Standards out race some Supers. Let's just say that "a Standard may not be able to out perform a Super (suspension wise), but it can be pretty darn close when the Standard's suspension is set up correct".