OBX Engines

[vujade]

Who has built them, who is currently building one?

What do you like about it?

What dont you like about it?

How much did it cost you?

Any other comments please?

[Type 5 Joe]

I think myself and Adrian Pillow, Tom Notch, Jeff Rodgers, are the only ones doing these right now... In the U.S.

There is V.W. Morten in europe, and a few others...

Expect rave reviews from me and these guys. I don't think any would post negative aspects to these...

They are not reccomended for the first time builder, the price is between a high-end Type I Hotrod, and a high-end Mild Type IV.

These are really new, and once the word gets out, people will be re-thinking their motor options.

Cheaper and better, more powerfull, more durable, more reliable, correctly engineered Type I cooling system, Wayyyy Better than the Type IV, for shure.

Add up the $$$ to H.P. Ratio to weight Ratio...

Disclaimer: These are my Proffesional Opinons only

The disclaimer was edited by me.....Alex
- Joe

[Pillow]

I agree with Joe. A value compared to the T1 or upright T4 but for different reasons.

Costs so far:
$55 core 2.1 came with great case and 76.4 crank.
$80 2.1 std/std/std KS bearings.
$10 cut off wheels for the water jackets.
$15 two new pushrod tubes (the rest were good to reuse)
$8 front main seal.
$8 rear main seal.
$5ish big pushrod tube seals for the case side.
$30 dual RX-7 oil coolers.
$5 Early fan housing (no cooler) and DP tinware with T3 lower tins.
$0 Remanufactured 12v Generator (do not ask).
$0 Misc T1 parts, what can I say I am a pack rat.
$? T4 210mm pressure plate
$? T4 210mm clutch
$0 T1 fuel pump and rod

Still need to do, but low cost:
Tap for full flow and put in the right plugs.
Clean case completely (twice; one to start and then a finish cleaning once ready to assemble).
Get T4 210mm flywheel.

Custom work:
Relocate case head stud locations, like VW Morten's webpage illustrates.
94B cylinders cut down to fit and compression (read: no spacers, just the way you want it).
Drill T4 flywheel for T1 mainshaft bearing.

Normal crap for any motor:
30mm oil pump $40
full flow cover $20
AN fittings and hoses $100-150ish.
T1 NEW heads drilled to 94. $350ish
94B P&Cs Mahle $150-200 depending (remember these need machined still).
T1 rod bearings $10
T1 cam bearings $12
T1 gasket kit $10
T1/T5 cam, depends $
T4/T5 lifters depends $
T1 stock rods depends $0-150 (H-beam 300).
Full balance job $100-300 depends

That is all I can think of off the top of my head.

Same crap as with any engine. Actually cheap since most of it is T1 stuff.

Not for the novice builder, but still pretty basic at the same time with general tools and skills.

A lot of the detailed stuff on mine is omited to keep this semi easy reading.

My goal is 7:1 CR, 100-140HP, and pushing a '66 Westi with a IRS rear end with a tall Super Beetle 3.88 single side plate tranny. Granted I think this combo could be an easy 150ish motor with a more agressive setup than what I am doing. Once you get into this range a T4 becomes very expensive to get that HP numbers and probably a stroker T4 which gets really painful to setup right (thus is why Jake gets a premium for his T4 HP engines as they are time consuming to get right).

Hope this helps somebody

[Ron Roberts]

What are some upper end Hp figures from these engines?
Thanks,
Ron

[Pillow]

http://www.badbug.com how does 9.358 @ 145.12mph (1/4 Mile) sound? Solid 10s on all motor.

Granted that is a drag only car, but I could see 200 pretty easy for the street if you make it big. Charles of LN Engineering could make some large P&Cs for the 101.5 pattern if a few people will go in on it. Then run Autocraft 101.5 heads or Supermags (?). Again I am not sure how streetable those heads are. But you could end up with like a 94-103 cylinder and 76.4-84+ stroke pretty easy. You do the math

Needless to say 150HP on the street is cake for an engine like this depending on how you set it up.

[cnavarro]

Most definately the aluminum cylinders will go a long way to help make a set of autocraft heads more streetable with the extra cooling, no doubt about it.

What kind of bore size do you think would be ideal? What kind of wall thicknesses do you want to run? Our 102mm Type 4 Nickies have a wall thickness of 6 1/2 mm for comparison. 94mm Type 1 Nickies have a wall thickness of 3 3/4 mm on the other hand and they've had great success. Hopefully Jake will chime in some time with some figures from his first dyno run of a Type 1 Nickies equipped monster he built :-)

And about quantities- we'll make a set even if only one person wants to step forward to the plate- we'll more than happily eat the programming and added tooling. It would be great to have a 100% all aluminum T5 :-)

Take care,

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

[Massive Type IV]

I don't have much time to post...All I can say is that the engine barely got over 300 degrees with a 135BHP load at 5,500RPM for 5 solid minutes strait!!!!!!!!!! Made more HP per cube than any engine I have built of that size and state of tune ever, and used half as much dyno fuel in the process!

[chigger]

The block appears to be the limiting factor for many of the buildups of the T1 engine (the new aluminum one being a bright star if they can get it right). The magnesium is just too soft for any long term build up of a very large powerful engine (100,000 miles). This is where the T4 starts to shine. As with any engine as the HP goes up the longevity goes down, but the T4 block can achieve higher levels for a longer time due to the massive bottom end. It has its own quirks as to how big you can go. Enter the T5. It seems to have some of the problems of the T1 and some of the problems of the T4, and alot of fixes for problems of both. To get a T1 block to handle an 84mm crank would cost almost as much as converting a T5 if not more. The T5 appears to have more room with less clearance problems. Now if it is converted to use the T1 head bolt pattern the limitation appears to be around 94mm P&Cs.
To restate (this is for a street motor)
The T1 is good to about 2180 before reliability goes down depending on the state of tune.
The T4 can be stroked a little and use much bigger cylinders than the T1 while retaining a greater tune level for a longer time.
The T5 appears (as yet not documented as well as the T1 or T4) able to handle large strokes, but small cylinders using the current modification methods. The potential is there for large cylinders using aftermarket high end heads and cylinders. The longevity should be similar to the T4 engine in the same state of tune.
The T5 probably has the greatest potential for large displacement and longevity of the 3 engines due to the room in the case, the cylinder spacing, and head bolt pattern. While the potential is there it remains to be seen if the potential can be taken advantage of .
Each engine has its pro and cons on cost, total HP, max displacement, longevity, etc. There are proponents of each build up and all can achieve outstanding results. This article is not to say one is better than another, but to give insight on selecting the motor for your needs and budget.

[Tim]

It seems that the T5 obx engine is very tempting. According to what I read, it is more resistable to heat, more durable, higher output than a T1 engine of equivalent size, and costs less than a T4 enigne with similar output. I think it is very suitable for circuit racing, isn't it?

Any idea how much a T5 long block will cost with following configurations? Just an idea for my plan.

- a good condition case with all necessary machining works (any new case available?)
- 86mm stroke (anything like this available?)
- 94mm+ bore (birals with JE pistions?)
- Autocraft 101.5mm heads (save the studs conversion and allow larger bore)
- T1 lifter conversion with wild racing cam (web 86c?)

Tim

[Massive Type IV]

In my opinion, its alot of work, but I'm doing one now.....Its gonna take alot fior it to out do a TIV in my opinion.... Atleast reliability and longevity wise.

[Panelfantastic]

WHAT??
M T IV is building a M T V ??

Seriously, should be VERY interesting to hear Jake's thoughts after he's done. Hope he has time to share.

[Massive Type IV]

Yep, its a test engine for my 181, and it is going to be a 100% OEM performance engine....

[Pillow]

The only concern I have about large T5 engines producing serious HP is the case through bolts, which the T4 has. Granted I doubt it is an issue for anything under 200HP, but once you build up huge cranks and stuff things start to break or reach max load tolerances.

Also check this out from Boston Bob:
http://www.vanagon.com/info/articles.../low-idle.html

Granted that is with the heavy 24mm wrist pins. The T1 rods will have 22mm which is much lighter. I still cannot figure if it is rod angle as Bob hints at or added pin weight or just the load of a large Vanagon to push around.

Just as a teaser one of the fellows listed here is doing a T5 and using Nickies 94Bs. I will be curious to see what happens there.

Personally for the first build I will stay with the cheap Mahle P&Cs until I see how this T5 works out. Again a relative unknown in some ways so I do not want to spend lots of money for a potential door stop. My huge concern is oil cooling for anything in a sedan platform. For a bus I have solutions, but for a sedan I have not done the research yet. But I like the non-doghouse shroud and no oil cooler in there plan and just use massive external coolers (two RX-7 coolers could probably keep a 911 cool). Once the iron 94Bs blow up I will strongly consider the Nickies T1 94Bs as a replacement once I find out how this works out.

I know I have said this at least 100 times by now, but I think for an upright configuration this is a really strong alternative to the T4 upright and pitiful AL T1 cases. Granted I still have some unresolved questions as I go along this journey, but this is pioneering so that is to be expected.

... I am still collecting parts at this point. And need to finish the Bus IRS conversion even to get a spot for the motor to go in. Busy days.

Take Care,

[cnavarro]

The only concern I have about large T5 engines producing serious HP is the case through bolts, which the T4 has. Granted I doubt it is an issue for anything under 200HP, but once you build up huge cranks and stuff things start to break or reach max load tolerances.

Someone had mentioned to me at one point that there is someone running around with an oxyboxer modified to accept thru-bolts. Has anyone seen or heard this too?

Just as a teaser one of the fellows listed here is doing a T5 and using Nickies 94Bs. I will be curious to see what happens there.

Who :-) ? Do I know this person?

Personally for the first build I will stay with the cheap Mahle P&Cs until I see how this T5 works out. Again a relative unknown in some ways so I do not want to spend lots of money for a potential door stop.

A very reasonable concern.

My huge concern is oil cooling for anything in a sedan platform. For a bus I have solutions, but for a sedan I have not done the research yet. But I like the non-doghouse shroud and no oil cooler in there plan and just use massive external coolers (two RX-7 coolers could probably keep a 911 cool).

Conversion aside, I was having similar concerns with the 2615cc type 4 (102 Nickies equipped) that will be going into my automatic type 3. My biggest worry is that since my gearing is not ideal, i'll be running fairly high rpms which might lead to hotter than expected oil temps, granted i'll be using synthetic oil which should be able to take the head. I myself was considering an RX-7 cooler, but I got my hands on an almost new setrab monster that has a little more surface area than an RX-7 cooler for only $50- I couldn't resist that kind of deal. I'm going to be placing it, along with a two or three smaller fans (7" or 8") at the front of my squareback, positioned close to where the a/c condenser was intended to be fitted. One slight change though- i'm removing the spare tire well insert and blocking it off to allow more cross-ventilation. I'm just moving the spare tire onto the top of the gas tank.

Once the iron 94Bs blow up I will strongly consider the Nickies T1 94Bs as a replacement once I find out how this works out.

Another idea popped into my head- maybe its been done, maybe not, but has anyone, when using the larger stud pattern offered by the T5, fit a type 4 cylinder, say a 96mm? My point being, what kind of head/case registers could we be looking at to maximize the size of possible bores while still retaining fairly thick cylinder walls? (Since we'll make the cylinder from scratch anyways, what's the big deal if we change registers?)

Take care,

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

[Massive Type IV]

Keep one thing in mind for longevity.

There are fewer and fewer aircooled enthusiast hardcore enough to drive their car everyday, in cold, wet weather, or in summer without A/C. These people may never ever see 100K miles.

I for one am not in that bracket, I have driven the 912E 13K since september 2002, and as soon as teh 181 is done it will be my daily driver for atleast 2 solid years, as the Porsche will be a weekend only car, just like the 914 will be a near full time Drivers ed/track car...

Just keep that in mind. How many people here have driven their VW for 100K miles?????? probably only those like me that think cars with radiators are a sin to drive!