An $8,000 Question

[oasis]

Originally Posted by NO_H2O

I can assemble one of Jakes type 4 kits for you.

I was wondering how you would feel about being conscripted into service.

Originally Posted by NO_H2O

Please do some looking at the difference between the Type 1 and Type 4.

I have been looking and lurking about this since before I even bought my car. I will continue to do so. There may be other considerations for me but I wanted to keep this exercize on the simple side.

Originally Posted by NO_H2O

Granted the cooling conversion is a bit more costly ...

The cooling conversion should have been included in my hypothetical eight grand but at this point I am satisfied with the answers I have received. Until I have further questions, there is no sense in pushing or nitpicking this any further ... unless there is another option to be considered.

When I have a concrete budget, then the devil (me ) will be in the details. No, I am not budgeting for concrete.

Originally Posted by NO_H2O

the exhaust is just a little more but not as bad as it once was thanks to Jake and Tiger at A1. Jake is working on an even cheaper exheast that will still be made in the USA.

The exhausts I have seen that I would want aren't cheap. That goes for the Type 1 exhaust as well as the Type 4 exhaust.

The exhaust is obviously an important component to the engine itself. I have certain parameters that are important to me as well. I purposely kept the exhaust a separate issue and out of the budgetary constraints because there are a lot more exhausts I wouldn't consider than there are that I would.

I will continue to lurk, look and learn on that front, too. :agree:

[NO_H2O]

I think a 2056 with 40 Dells, econ. exhaust, DTM shroud somewere around 120 HP with a nice fat/flat torque curve should fit your budget and needs very well. But for a few dollars more (exhaust mainly) you could go 2270. For me,,,, You can have the big HP numbers. Give me some big torque numbers and a flat torque curve that gives me power down low. How often do you drive at RPM's above 5,250?

[petevw]

Originally Posted by NO_H2O

How often do you drive at RPM's above 5,250?

Every time i take it out, it gets buzzed to 8K. Either stretching out a gear, or playing with the throttle getting it sideways around corners.

I love the BUZZ of the RPM's. Must have been the Kawasaki Ninja (14,000rpm), or my Rotax 2-stroke 100cc rotary valve (22,000rpm), go-kart. Those toys have corrupted me, everything now seems slow. So now i need to get pushed in the seat while its screaming! A low revving "torque monster" doesn't do it for me. Now, how can i get my TDI Golf to 7,000rpm?

[Supa Ninja]

Originally Posted by petevw

I love the BUZZ of the RPM's. Must have been the Kawasaki Ninja (14,000rpm), or my Rotax 2-stroke 100cc rotary valve (22,000rpm), go-kart. Those toys have corrupted me, everything now seems slow. So now i need to get pushed in the seat while its screaming!

I know the feeling

[NO_H2O]

Ok,,, that is how some of us drive but most do not. I have seen some folks have an 8000 rpm red line and shift at 5000 when they are on it. As far as the Daily driver goes,,, most folks are under 5250 rpm most of the time.
I still remember my 2 stroke Kawi street bike from way back. It would spool like a MoFo.

[Mikey]

Oasis,

My best opinion is go T-4. And Dave would be my choice to build the engine. Great guy with great attention to detail. :agree:

Even though I'm going Suby, I don't hate aircooleds. I'll probably stay with an Aircooled in my '72 standard when I GL it.. someday.

Just my 2cent.

[oasis]

Originally Posted by NO_H2O

How often do you drive at RPM's above 5,250?

As you probably remember, we cut off my stock 1600 T1 on Dyno Day at 5,000. Not having a tach (no new gauges 'til last), I would guess by sound I have taken it to 5,000 maybe three to five times at most.

My Super shares daily driving duties with an '02 Cabrio. It redlines at 6,200 and I did that exactly once. 5,250? Maybe five, seven times. I don't drive my wife's '02 Golf TDI that often but I guarantee I haven't pushed it above 5,000 more than twice.

When my wife and I were first married, she owned an RX-7. I understand it is a different animal being a rotary, but I did not like its power curve. Don't get me wrong, it was fun to drive and totally defied its reputation as being an oil-burning unreliable powerplant.

Driving the rotary Mazda was a bit of an adventure in the sense it did not have the suddenness I wanted if I wanted to make a break for it. Once it revved, I was fine. There was indeed a certain thrill to shift at high RPM's. Nevertheless, it forced me to anticipate extra early or to come from behind in a pinch.

The only time I want to "punch it" from a standstill, is when I need to be in another lane in a short amount of time. Having a high revver would be nice to get ahead of "the competition" but in reality if I'm against my match, I just slip into second place for the lane change.

My desire for "instant grab" at more moderate RPM's are due to the two most common situations I am in where I live. If I am on the winding roads that are common in the suburbs (not residential streets), I like to test the car's and my limits. Even with my venerable two-point-slow and my Super, I have embarrassed many cars who cannot take the curves as well as me and many drivers who have to get revving to play catch-up. By that time I have encountered another curve and creating even more space between me and Mr. Frustrated.

The other situation is on interstates and other major arteries of speed limits of 45 and higher. In this situation, I am typically surrounded by an assortment of goofballs with differing and conflicting agendas. Here, I like to create some distance between me and the agitated pack. Again, my stock Cabrio does the trick because it gives me an instant burst. My wife's TDI actually quite amazing and will leave a similar Golf with a 1.8T behind because I don't even need to downshift. It's grab and go.

Naturally, the TDI's advantage over a 1.8T or a Japanese high revver is short-lived. It does give me the lead, though, and it's not even chipped or anything. If I have open road ahead of me, the Cabrio and TDI will do 90 MPH without complaint and will do 110 or more for sustained amount of time if I need to prove a point. (I'll be the first to admit when that situation occurs, I'd be adlibbing to come up with what point I am exactly proving.)

Meanwhile back at the Super, I want to be able to "punch it" while already rolling regardless if it is coming out of a curve, getting out of congestion, or put some distance between me and some nitwit. I want to be able to do 90 without complaint, and have 105-110 quite attainable.

Top speed? I only ever had one car I pushed to its very top speed. I had a '69 Mustang with a modest 302 (to keep my teenage insurance rates equally modest) on a Sunday night during the oil embargo of the early '70's that I had wound up to 120 MPH on I-695. I was literally the only sole on the road.

So, top speed for my 1302 is unimportant as long as it meets the other criteria.

(BTW, my personal top speed is 135 MPH but the Torino I was in had a fraction more left in it. The Grand Prix I was against was still pulling away, too. Ah, to be young and stupid again ...)

Top quarter mile time? Unimportant. I am quite certain if the above criteria is met, I will do just fine. I may not win but I will still do just fine.

[oicdn]

^^ Sounds like somebody talking about a 600 and a literbike....

Good thread...just wanted to give it a bump...

[MX67]

WoW
What a debate
Nice compare of prices and motors! Suby? Drove all STI's till now, even the newest one on Adria track in Italy. Suby is glorious car, which performes exactly like every good driver like. It's ideal for european roads, but I would never put his engine in my bug. NEVER. It has 280 HP from 2,5 litre, and, believe it or not, that car has many Porsche parts made in Germany! Yes, You read well, just like some things on new 911's has "made in Japan" sign. Guess who's making them!!
Suby in My bug?? Hmmmm...
It's like putting someone's else's butt on my girlfriend! That "big-butt" is f%$#ing great on other girl, but not on my babe! I like her as she is. If, and when I make a wish of big butt, I'll change her for new model ( ), or get one to drive daily. But I'll spare current babe of plastic surgery. Well, fitness sounds good to me, so even the current girl can be "bigger-butted", so what if that demands more sacrifies, money and time?

If I send her to do plastics, one part of her will be stiff, the other will not, there is allways a risk of finding strange material everywhere in the bed... And it doesn't get older and older in the same time! One thing gets softer and softer, the other allways stay stiff, so I would end up with something that looks like...well...I won't be rude

It's same with Bug's.

Oasis, do as You like, I would reccomend You some good surgents, but few tousend miles away

Cheers people!

[kleinporsche]

Originally Posted by oasis

Meanwhile back at the Super, I want to be able to "punch it" while already rolling regardless if it is coming out of a curve, getting out of congestion, or put some distance between me and some nitwit. I want to be able to do 90 without complaint, and have 105-110 quite attainable.

That's exactly what I'm looking for. Any advices on which aircooled engine I could use? Would a 1915cc or 1968cc do the job?????

[oasis]

I'm ba-a-a-a-ack.

I still have the two possibilities swishing about in my noggin -- a 2056 or 2270 T4 built by NO_H2O and a 2110 T1 built by one of three suggested sources. Since my last post on this subject, two other possibilities came to mind.

Well, actually, I want to be told the pros and cons of whether they are indeed possibilities.

I didn't want to hijack other threads. Please remember the stipulations in my $8,000 question -- the main two being the cost must include labor and I do not have the facility or the know-how to perform the labor myself.

The first is a Vanagon (USA name) engine converted to air-cooled. I owned a Vanagon for six years and loved it. I am talking about the engines used between 1983 and 1991; not the air-cooled predecessor T4 engine which I understand has issues of its own.

The second is a Corvair six-cylinder engine.

Off the top of my head, it would seem that the price issue and the hp/torque issue would be met as potential "pros."

The potential downside of the Corvair engine is it may not fit. I am buying a magazine/manual about the Corvair engine. It has an article in it about conversion for VW usage. I fear that it will fit Type 4 cars, dune buggies and Bajas more easily than a GL 1302 that doesn't want to headbutt onlookers with its appearance.

The ironic potential downside to the Vanagon engine is the fact that if I ever own another Vanagon, I will probably stuff a TDI in it. Of course in that case, I would be keeping the radiator. The other potential downside is finding someone to do the conversion. There is a three-year old thread here and an article of unknown vintage at home which will require my reading a few more times.

Any thoughts? Am I still at the original two possibilities?

[NO_H2O]

Vanagon egine converted to aircooled (type 5) = lots of machine work and will more than likely cost far more than a type 4 in the end. Jake started one and gave up on it some time later.
Corair 6 - Perfomance parts are fewer and farther between. Any emgine that turns backwards and has an odd number of cam lobes it too freaky for me. Fitting it and trans adapting may be a problem too.
A 2056 type 4 can net you 130 hp and last far longer and have a wider/flater torque curve than a 2110 type 1. A 2270 would push 170+ hp at an extra $ for headwork, etc.
Just my 2 cents.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by oasis

The second is a Corvair six-cylinder engine.

The potential downside of the Corvair engine is it may not fit. I am buying a magazine/manual about the Corvair engine.

Haha, what made you think of this 'possibility'
Did you get the Bill Fisher book(let)? I ordered one through ebay as well,but haven't received it yet....

I fear that it will fit Type 4 cars, dune buggies and Bajas more easily than a GL 1302 that doesn't want to headbutt onlookers with its appearance.

I think too that it will not really fit a 1302 or any other stock bug engine space. It could maybe, but would include some new modifications that no-one has ever done (thats why I like it ), but that will also exclude it for your application...

The type 5 is still for gearheads that also wrench themselves, as there are too few being made IMHO. A total engine from Rocky Jennings for instance may be interesting to ask a quotation for
Asking doesn't cost you and it ends all speculation about price differences there may or may not be....

Regards,
Walter
(who doesn't build engines for anybody)

[oasis]

Originally Posted by NO_H2O

type 5 = lots of machine work and will more than likely cost far more than a type 4 in the end.

Yeah, I was afraid of that.

Originally Posted by NO_H2O

Corvair 6 - Fitting it and trans adapting may be a problem too.

I was afraid of that, too.

Originally Posted by Wally

Haha, what made you think of [the Corvair] 'possibility'
Did you get the Bill Fisher book(let)? I ordered one through ebay as well,but haven't received it yet....

That's the booklet! I saw it on my typical eBay search at the same time that other thread got started. I figured it was a long shot but at six cylinders the need to go beyond stock might have been minimal and at least worth a look.

I do read the technical posts even if I am the resident technoklutz. If our next house has a garage, I will get some stock beater and learn on it with the hopes of being able to apply it to the car(s) that really matter to me.

Originally Posted by Wally

Walter, who doesn't build engines for anybody

Afraid of being conscripted?