Ultimate Porsche Brake Upgrade

[Typ Vier]

Wally wrote :
(No, they weight too much! and even more so would the matching rotors. The 6-pots are the modern 'mono-block' calipes tho, so at least they are a little better already

Just trying to say that bigger brakes are not always better.
The ultimate race or street car just has enough brake for 99% of all occasions and is as light as possible to reduce (unsprung) weight...)

I think you should look at the weight of the original Beetle brake components first before making such a statement.
The original Beetle ATE caliper weighs 2900gr where as the Porsche 996 GT3 6 piston caliper weighs 3750 gr, thats only 850gr heavier.
O.k. the discs of a Beetle/Ghia have only 6400gr compared to the 9500gr GT3 units , but add these numbers up and you will find the weight gain at the front axle is only about 8 kilos.
Every brake upgrade will add weight no matter what you do but the Porsche components will at least have enough brake for 100% of all occasions no matter how big your engine or how hard your driving style will be.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by Typ Vier

I think you should look at the weight of the original Beetle brake components first before making such a statement.

Presuming that I didn't isn't trustfull either

My alu 944 turbo Cup 4-pot caliper weighs twice a much as a original steel bug one...

"The ultimate" brakes should be just enough for all situations. Then you have less overall weigth at all situations and less unsprung weight as compared to overkill brakes...

Like I said: too large brake components hurt performance overall...

[Typ Vier]

The weight of the 6 pot 996`s is just 3750 gr and the standard Beetle caliper is 2900 gr. Checked the 996 caliper brand new off the shelf on the scale. Don`t know the weight of the 4 pots but I presume they should be a little lighter. Will see tomorrow and update weight if 4 pots are in stock.
PORSCHE brake mods have been carried out since the 50`s and the biggest available brakes were fitted to Beetles back then, going through until today. PORSCHE brakes have become bigger and Beetles were outfitted with them no matter how big they were.
No one cared if the unspung weight increased as the added safety was needed for high speed Autobahn driving.
My 57 (IRS,Typ 4) had several brake fade problems with normal beetle discs and calipers when driving through the Spessart A3 part.
It is hard when decelerating from 200+Km/h several times sometimes downhill with normal beetle discs and calipers, however they are good for around town driving.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by Typ Vier

PORSCHE brake mods have been carried out since the 50`s and the biggest available brakes were fitted to Beetles back then, going through until today. PORSCHE brakes have become bigger and Beetles were outfitted with them no matter how big they were.
No one cared if the unspung weight increased as the added safety was needed for high speed Autobahn driving.
My 57 (IRS,Typ 4) had several brake fade problems with normal beetle discs and calipers when driving through the Spessart A3 part.
It is hard when decelerating from 200+Km/h several times sometimes downhill with normal beetle discs and calipers, however they are good for around town driving.

You still missing my point We are all convinced here that the stock brakes aren't enough on performance bugs. No one maybe more than me!
However., the issue at hand is that TOO big a brake isn't helpfull anymore after a certain point on a car as light as a bug: then it only weights more and that hurts performance overall.

Besides, there are 4-pot and 4-pots...Mine are the radially mounted ones which need a 32mm thick steel disk. The disk alone is like lead. Caliper weights around 5 kg!
3-pots need very large diameter disks too boot. Total weight is just not the alu caliper, but the whole thing together: caliper, pads disks. It adds up really fast, especially with big wheels (16/17 x 7/8J, which also can add up to 7 kg per wheel!! Thats rim+tire and yes, I have weighted several of those as well (before you question that as well).
When performance is sought, these things need to be looked at. Again, bigger is definately not better after a certain point.
More weight can hurt more than less performance. Think about it if you will...

Its the perfect balance of gained performance versus the added weight that is what we should be looking for. Not just finding the biggest baddest calipers out there for looks sake...

Walter

[Typ Vier]

Missing a point? Car manufacturers are reducing unsprung weight just about every model change when they can, this is nothing new. Just look at all late model VOLKSWAGEN`s and check the amount of aluminium used in suspension and brake parts today.
PORSCHE brakes are increasing the unsprung weight and so will every other brake upgrade, this is certainly not an advantage but the safety aspect is more important
The point is the ultimate PORSCHE brake upgrade is the GT3 6pot if you like it or not. Disc size and piston diameter is the biggest. Only the Cayenne Turbo S discs have the same diameter, however the piston diameter in the Cayenne caliper is smaller. And if you want to reduce unsprung weight fit ceramic discs as they are lighter.
If you are fitting these brakes to a beetle you will have to set them up for it, they are way too big for the vehicle weight and it will make the car hard to control when braking.
Everybody has its own preferences, I like the 993 and 944 turbo brakes too, but it comes back to availability and affordability for each individual.
If someone offers you a complete set of 996/997 GT3 brakes for a bargain price, would you say no to them because they increase the unsprung weight
As for the wheels, every upgrade will increase the weight.
If you want to stay on the road, you have to fit wider rims and tyres.
Try to accept it and not turn this into another STF .

[kleinporsche]

I don't want to het between you to but there seems to be miscomprehension somewhere. It looks like a personnal affair. You can both have 2 differant opinions and we all need to respect that. Typ Vier, I understand your point in terms of possibilities: yes the biggest calipers you can fit on a bug is the 6 pot cayenne S , or 6 pot from the carrera GT for that matter! But as you said it your self, no bugs need that much braking. And here comes Wally's argument: we don't need the extra weight of the extra pistons and the weight of the extra disc size. Plus, I imagine it is a hell to set up to avoid locking up the brakes. Wally's argument is directed toward compromise (balance) between weigth and performance: I you put too much in the performance part of the equation, you hurt the overall car performance.

For example, I've seen a tv program a while ago on car tuning in general. What ingeneers recommand in terms of wheels is never go over +2 in terms of wheel diameter. For the bug: stock is 15" so max should be 17". Afterward, it is too heavy for nothing and you start having a hardtime cornering. They did a timed slalom course: stock, +2 upgrade and +3. The car with +2 did a better time than stock, but the car with +3 upgrade did worst than stock!!!

Sometimes bigger is not better...

[Bebobug]

Originally Posted by kleinporsche

Sometimes bigger is not better...

So, very, very true. Without DSC & ABS having 6 pot calipers & 12" rotors will lockup prematurely & become dangerous to use on the street. But, if you use heavier rims this will help counteract this by making the brakes work more. The side effect to all of this would be poor handling characteristics due to the tremendous amount of unsprung weight but, for a show car this wouldn't ever be tested anyway. So, it is your choice of what you want to run and if it doesn't work, my car still runs