WRX via t1 transmission

[kleinporsche]

Hi, I'm a big germanlook.com fan. I fell on the link a couple of month ago while looking for Käfercup pictures now I'm hooked up.

Anyways, Here's the question: I'm in a period of questionning regarding engines: a boosted t1, a mildTIV or a 2.5l subaru engine. I would like to hook the engine to my t1 transmission. Subis looks the best bang for the buck, but I called a guy last night who makes VW engine conversions and he advised me to stick to type1 engines (around 1850cc) and forget WRX's because it's to violent for the T1 trans. (a friend of his went through 4 gear boxes since he got it instaled). But still, Jak Rizzo did it (hooked up a wrx turbo to his genuine 1970 box) and it seems to work well...

IS IT TRUE THAT A EJ25 IS TO VIOLENT FOR A STOCK T1 TRANSMISSION???

thanks for all of your inspiration!

[tom'72]

If it's a 2.5 turbo WRX I would say don't do it, your box will break.
The single side plate type 1 booxes are the strongest stock type 1 boxes out there.

It all depends on what you are willing to spend, if your getting a 300hp wrx engine you'll need chassis stiffeners big brakes, roll cage,suspension + a strong (read expensive) gearbox.

[Rob]

Are you talking about a naturally aspirated 2.5 (165 HP), a 2.0 WRX engine (turbo, 227 HP), or a 2.5 STi (turbo, 300 HP) engine ?

Either way, eventually you will break your (stock) gearbox.

However, there are high performance trannys available as long as you shell out the $$$.

Rob.

[kleinporsche]

Thanks for the reply. I'm would like to start with a 2.5l normaly aspired. I saw a 2000 one for 350$ that as a blown crank. For the hp it's cheap compared to a 2.0l porsche +it's about 25 years younger! Should I consider a 2.1 wasserboxer? It's heard it's quite cheap and reliable too. But why nobody on this forum is talking about it? Does anybody know if you can put a porsche fan shroud on the wasserboxer? I presently have a 1600cc, and I'm just looking for some stock power. I don't really want to play around an engine exept for exhaust and carbs.

[73notch]

Does anybody know if you can put a porsche fan shroud on the wasserboxer

why would you, a wasser is watercooled.......

I'm would like to start with a 2.5l normaly aspired.

makes too much low end torque and would tear apart a stock tranny in no time

But still, Jak Rizzo did it (hooked up a wrx turbo to his genuine 1970 box) and it seems to work well...

jaks got a built type 1 box, not a stock one.

I don't really want to play around an engine exept for exhaust and carbs.

subys have EFI. i think you should stick to buying a built vw motor. an engine conversion will involve a tremendous amount of custom fabrication and kinks.

-Ryan

[tom'72]

putting a Suby engine in a bug isn't that difficult really, most problems I'm experiencing are from waiting for the parts to arrive.

If you find a suby engine that has the ecu you can buy a modified loom from outback for about 400 dollars, then you'll need an adaptor(Kennedy engineering and a vehicle speed sensor).
put an electric fuel pump in, piping under the car and mod the front to fit a radiator and that's about it.

I could do my conversion in less then 2 weeks if I'd have all the parts here from the start.

[Rob]

I think Tom makes it sound a bit easier than it is.
See the link in my sig for info on my project.

I did the wiring myself, which makes it a lot more difficult than buying a harness that is ready to go.

Based on the questions you ask, I would suggest to do a bit more research before you start buying parts.
See the following links for more info:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/...nagon/messages
http://frost.bbboy.net/vwengineconversions
http://shoptalkforums.com/viewforum....3bc85c9391126f

When buying the motor, make sure to get as many parts as possible. Get the whole wiring harness and ECU (unless you want to go with an aftermarket engine management system).

It all depends on how capable you are and how much money you have to spend. The general rule of thumb is to make a budget, and then double it.

Rob.

[kleinporsche]

73notch, I know wasser is water, but sabaru's ej's are too! Are they not? Why wouldn't you do a 2.1 conversion? 130 hp stock is not bad and it's VW (I think they are from vanagons). Anyways thanks for the comments, I was scared about the torque issue too with a Subi.

Rob, thanks for the links I had already visit them and they're quite cool too. That's where I saw the 2.1 conversion I was talking about (exept Idon't wanna turbo). Log on directly to:

http://www.clubvw.org.au/steve.htm

[73notch]

73notch, I know wasser is water, but sabaru's ej's are too! Are they not?

reason i brought it up, is because you asked about putting a porsche fan shroud(meaning aircooled) on a wasser, which is watercooled...

if 130hp is what you want, save yourself a huge headache and build up a 1914 vw engine, its a simple engine, proven to make good power in the right combo.

putting a Suby engine in a bug isn't that difficult really, most problems I'm experiencing are from waiting for the parts to arrive.

ya, in a perfect world maybe, and if you are doing a hackjob.
keep in mind you are
1. reengineering an aircooled car to watercooled, running waterlines is just the start.
2. converting a carbed car to FI. what pump are you using, did you run another line?
3.putting in a heavier engine, with a huge sump, hope your bug isnt lowered much.

how far are you on your conversion?

-Ryan

[tom'72]

I'll be making a new thread on my conversion soon but here are some pics I had already put up http://www.cardomain.com/ride/844382

and in response to 73notch's questions:
I mounted a Pierburg electronic fuel pump with a new 10 mm fuel line, and I have a shortened oil pan from bug@5speed in Germany.
At the moment I'm waiting for the modified wiring loom+ecu to arrive and then I'll pull out the old engine and start hooking up the new Subaru one.

[Steve C]

Hi

I dont know about where you are but fitting a Subi is a lot cheaper than building a VW motor with the same HP down here. As for gearboxes, its all up to your right foot how long they will last, a built up type 1 box with good gears etc will be OK unless you want to drag race every weekend. Myself Im going G50 with my subi motor.

Steve

[kleinporsche]

I saw a guy yesterday who builds high performance bugs and dune buggies and he talked to me about T1, particularely the 1915 engine. I think I will go that way for now. It will save me a lot of headhakes and I like the idea of a revy engine (depends on the camshaft you use of course). Eventualy could go to a 2332 and keep some of the parts invested (carbs, exaust, muffler, etc.). From what I've read on this forum and from what I've heard, I think subis are cheap to buy but cost more in the end in costom fabricaton and who's going to fix it if you don't have the time to do it yourself? Are you gonna go to a Subi or a Beetle mechanic?

The only thing that bugs me with the T1 is that it's recomanded for drags. I 'm more of a Trak guy and would like to run my car on the highway without overheating the engine. I know JSport and Jak Riz use T1 2332, but still it's a minority.

By the way Tom, your galipers are Siiiiick!!!

I'll be posting pics as soon as my girlfriend gets back with the digital camera!!!!! For now I don't have much done but in the next month, things are gonna change baby! Things are gonna change...

[73notch]

exactly, subys seem cheap when you plan it out, but there is still alot of custom stuff you need to do.

if you paid a shop to do the suby swap for you, do you really think the end price would be cheaper than a t1? no, fabrication takes time, and time isnt cheap.

a shop building a t1 would give you a motor that you bolt in, no real fabrication needed.

as for austrailia, im pretty sure the subys are popular out there, because it costs alot more to build a t1 motor than here in the states.

im just trying to give a fair view on both decisions. myself???i went suby

-Ryan

[rip]

hmm... why got your heart set on the WRX motors? They're other types of converisons, ones that may not require as much $$$ down the road and still offer you a good deal of reliable power.

And it is true about the custom work needed. But things like throttle linkage shouldn't be too hard, you should be able to run a cable from the end of the chassis tube, I think that CB sells one for they're single carb turbo kits, it's got a fancy machined put that just rides in the stock tube, this way you don't need a bracket. Routing radiator lines shouldn't be that bad as long as you take your time with it. I think the biggest problem would be trying to wire the ECU harness in.

The way I see it conversions are for those willing to trade one set of problems for another. Type I's or even type Iv's for that matter are easy to get in the car; the problems that arise are they're reliablity. Type I's are designed with about 4times less hp than what many people are expecting out of them. They are not full flowed, so you have to worry about filtering the oil and probably cooling it a bit better. Type IV will take care of this problem, and it will cost you. You'll spend around 600 bucks on a good exhaust system, not to mention the cooling system will run you a bit if you go upright. But the key benefit here is that it isn't "new territory" You have people that have been working on these motors and the parts are easily accessable, (though the type IV parts will run you a bit more). And be carfull of the lifter problems people have been having.

One of Jake's 2270 type IV would be a great way to go. But, the cost may be close to what you would pay for the pieces to do the conversion. One of Jakes motors would be great don't get me wrong, they are strong, powerful, and reliable.

With the converion if you pick the right motor you should be able to get 100 thousand miles out of it, with out tune up or adjustment, and it would be fuel efficient which is a good plus. The serious problems here are if you ever have to rebuild the motor. But I beleive now FLAPS can actually get rebuild motors for not too much. Or if you rebuild it; finding a place that handles your motor. But if you choose a newer toyota, ford, vw, or mazda this shouldn't be a huge problem.


Check this out
http://frost.bbboy.net/vwengineconversions

Frankly what I would do is find a performance forum like this one for the engine your interested in, this way you can talk to guys that know about your engine, this way you can find out the costs of a rebuild and see if the problems with that motor are somthing you can deal with. This will take time though. Search the forum. I really like what the mazda rotarys have to offer but... this is not to say it doesn't have its problems.

Every motor will have problems, its a matter of which are you willing to deal with. Find out what hp range you are looking at then see what fits the bill. And price it out, everything. See what it takes to make a type I with your power range. May be a 1776 turbo would be best. Get it full flowed and balanced well. Or a 1.8 n/a out of a jetta might be better.

Rip

[rip]

oh yeah another thing to concider, is what is the use of the motor. I mean is it going in to a street, road, drag, autoX car? If you plan to autoX well you'll need a DS sump, just another upgrade that may not be needed if you get a newer motor. But ground clearance can get to be an issuse.